Landships II

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Another US St. Chamond?


Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date:
Another US St. Chamond?
Permalink   


Here's a photo I found in the US Signal Corps collection some years ago of "US tank #790 knocked out supporting 90th Division 25 October 1918 Ferme de la Madeleine in the Meuse area". It is in all probability from a supporting French unit, but the "US" marking is curious. I have a much poorer shot from the front (if I can find the negative!)

Any ideas?

US St. Chamond

__________________


Field Marshal

Status: Offline
Posts: 461
Date:
Permalink   

Bonjour Steve,

It's, for me, a new an unknown photo !

Since September 3th, 1918 the St Chamond Grouping n� XI from Cdt Herlaut (AS 34 - Cne Henri Deloncle and AS 35 - Cne Adrien Balland) was on the order of the American Army.
On September 8th, 1918 - Grpt XI is under opcom 1th US Army Corps (AS 34 with 10� Brg - 5th DI US and AS 35 with 3� Brg- 2nd DI US )

12 Septmber - Grpt n� XI Fight in Regnieville sector with these two Divisions, and between 27 September to 4 October these tanks fight in Montfaucon's sector.
I am, for instance, not able to say if it is an AS 34 or AS 35 tank.

On October 2th, 1918 - Grpt XI is under opcom of 3th US ID.

This photo (25 October) was probably done after these fights. The location (Ferme de la Madeleine) is good for this period (and this fights). For this French Tank units there is no JMO (Journal de Marche et Op�rations) in S.H.D Vincennes. Some informations in 5th RAS JMO, when Grpt XI was on the order of this Regiment.

It's, probably, a breaking down tank destroyed by the artillery. There is no report speaking of St Chamond destroyed during action.
On a very good photo, it will be, probably, possible to read the tank number (in white just in the middle of the tank). It's only the last 3 numbers. S�rie 5xx or 6xx for AS 34 et AS 35 Group.

On the map, with destroyed tanks around Montfaucon, are only report destroyed Renault FT and one Schneider . . . . Destroyed St Chamond are, perhaps, already pick up.

I have also a bad copy of a beaufitul photo coming from "Historical and Pictorial Review - 2nd Infantry Regiment - 5th ID". Members of the American HQ Division and AS 35 Group.

I hope it's the first one of a very long serie . . . . coming from United States !

Michel



__________________


Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date:
Permalink   

Michel:
I'm not sure which of the Signal Corps photos you have seen, so here's a few. I will post them separately. Here's a pic of US and French officers from Groupement XI, 8 October 1918, Blercourt during joint training.

St. Chamond Blercourt

__________________


Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date:
Permalink   

Here's another one, Le Poilu, #691, Chavigny, 18 July 1918St Chamond Chavigny

__________________


Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date:
Permalink   

A Char caisson, Gutrey, 16 June 1918Char Caisson

__________________


Field Marshal

Status: Offline
Posts: 461
Date:
Permalink   

Bonsoir Steve,

The Recovery St Chamond (third photo) is near Cutry (and not Gutrey). This village is West of Missy-au-Bois. This tank was from Grpt XI or XII (SRR 105 or SRR 107). These 2 Grpt were fighting with the Big Red One.

The "Poilu" is a St Chamond from Groupe AS 34 (Grpt XI). As und Number are undknown.
The number is under the front machine-gun (N 5xx or N6xx)
It's�probably possible to read it on a better photo.
If the date is good (18 July 1918), this tank could not be there in Chavigny. If the village is good this photo was taken on July 23th, 1918. It was not the fight with the Big Red One (from 16 to 19/7/18) but an other one with the 58th French ID near Longpont.
With the Big Red One, Grpt XI and XII were fighting in a sector north of La Glau's Farm and Craven�on's farm.
It's probably a mistake on the caption of this photo by photographs of the Army signal Corps.

I exactly spoke of the first photo. It's a better quality and I have now a problem.
For me, the French officer on left was a Lieutenant. It is probably a Lt-Colonel and, perhaps the Lt-Colonel Emile Wahl (1th AS Brigade Commander).

My own photo is larger on left with two other French officers. On the book, the French officers name given (from left to right) were :
Cne Withers, Lt Threpenier, Lt Brandillon, Lt Barbant, Lt Fortin, Cne Halleck, Cne Deloncle and�Cdt Herlaut.

I think that Herlaut is on right (with a stick) and Deloncle just behind him (with a beret). I am now not sure for the other. . . . . !

The First French As Brigade was�under�command�of 1th American Army on September 9th, 1918.
(Note n� 1926 P/1 Artilleried'Assaut/1� brigade/Etat-Major du 9 septembre 1918)

Ordre de Bataille de l'AS mise � la disposition de la 1� Arm�e US

Etat-Major de la 1� Brigade d'AS :
���������������������� Colonel Emile Wahl����������������� : Commandant de la 1� Brigade
���������������������� Capitaine Jean Perr頠������������ : Officier Adjoint
���������������������� Lieutenant Alban de Virel�������� : Officier Adjoint
���������������������� S/Lieutenant Lucien Chelli������� : Officier Adjoint

505� RAS :��� (225 Chars Renault FT)

Etat-Major du 505� RAS :�
�����������������������Chef de Bataillon Mare������������ : Commandant de la 1� Brigade�
���������������������� Capitaine d'Armancourt����������� : Officier Adjoint
���������������������� Lieutenant Moretton���������������� : Officier Adjoint technique
���������������������� S/Lieutenant Pernot���������������� : Officier Adjoint administratif

13� Bataillon de Chars L�gers
��������������������� Chef de Bataillon Louis Duclos���: Commandant du Bataillon
��������������������� Lieutenant Edmond Cosset������� : Officier Adjoint tactique
��������������������� S/Lieutenant Louis R�camier����� : Officier Adjoint technique
��������������������� S/Lieutenant Xavier Gistucci������ : Officier de liaison
��������������������� M�decin Auxiliaire L. Jondeau���� : M�decin

����������� AS 337
������� Capitaine Gustave Liaras����������� : Commandant de l'AS 337
��������Lieutenant Paul H頠������������������ : Chef de la 1� Section
������� Aspirant Paul Barr頠������������������ : Chef de la 2� Section
������� Lieutenant Ga�tan Cosset��������� : Chef de la 3� Section
������� Lieutenant Maurice Poullain��������: Chef de l'�chelon

����������� AS 338
��������Lieutenant Yves Laticule������������� : Commandant de l'AS 338
������� Lieutenant Raoul Giraud��������������: Chef de la 1� Section
��������Lieutenant Georges Dewarin������ : Chef de la 2� Section
������� S/Lieutenant Jean Frauchemont��: Chef de la 3� Section
������� Aspirant Andr� Bigourdin�������������: Chef de l'�chelon�

����������� AS 339
��������Lieutenant H. Hamel�������������������� : Commandant de l'AS 339

14� Bataillon de Chars L�gers
��������������������� Chef de Bataillon J. Guillot���������� : Commandant du Bataillon
��������������������� Lieutenant A. Paul���������������������� : Officier Adjoint tactique
��������������������� Aspirant H. Bloch������������������������� : Officier de liaison
��������������������� S/Lieutenant E. Bellanger����������� : Officier Adjoint technique
��������������������� M�decin Auxiliaire Vergeau��������� : M�decin

����������� AS 340
���������Capitaine J. Maitre����������������������� : Commandant de l'AS 340

����������� AS 341
���������Capitaine J. Toutain��������������������� : Commandant de l'AS 341

����������� AS 342
���������Lieutenant A. Jacquot������������������ : Commandant de l'AS 342

14� Bataillon de Chars L�gers
��������������������� Chef de Bataillon Eug�ne Richard� : Commandant du Bataillon
����������������������Lieutenant Andr� Hallier��������������� : Officier Adjoint tactique
��������������������� S/Lieutenant Louis Frison������������� : Officier Adjoint technique
��������������������� S/Lieutenant Henri Ratheaux�������� : Officier de liaison
��������������������� M�decin Auxiliaire Louis Andoli������ : Medecin

����������� AS 343
���������Cne Arnaud Brunet de Month�lie�� : Commandant de l'AS 343
�������� Lieutenant Jacques Barnaud��������� : Chef de la 1� Section
�������� S/Lieutenant Louis Latapie����������� : Chef de la 2� Section
�������� Lieutenant Albert Vitu��������������������: Chef de la 3� Section
�������� S/Lieutenant Eug�ne L�vi������������� : Chef de l'�chelon

����������� AS 344
��������� Lieutenant Paul More-Chevalier���� : Commandant de l'AS 344
��������� Lieutenant Jacques Goguyer��������� : Chef de la 1� Section
��������� S/Lieutenant Sadi Solau���������������� : Chef de la 2� Section
��������� Lieutenant Camille Meyerfeld�������� : Chef de la 3� Section
��������� S/Lieutenant Andr� Seval���������������: Chef de l'�chelon

����������� AS 345
��������� Lieutenant Jean Ragaine���������������� : Commandant de l'AS 345
��������� Lieutenant Jacques Mathieu����������� : Chef de la 1� Section
��������� Lieutenant Gaston Prost�����������������: Chef de la 2� Section
��������� Lieutenant Jean M�nard������������������: Chef de la 3� Section
��������� S/Lieutenant Gabriel Raffier�������������: Chef de l'�chelon

AS 104 (Section de Ravitaillement et de R�paration)

��������� Lieutenant Schmid : Commandant de la SRR 104

Groupement d'AS n� XI�� (27 chars Saint Chamond)

��������� Chef de Bataillon Auguste Herlaut����� : Commandant du Groupement
��������� Capitaine Yves Rihouet���������������������� : Officier Adjoint tactique
��������� Lieutenant Alexis Philippon���������������� : Officier Adjoint technique
��������� Lieutenant Henri Riboulet������������������� : Officier de liaison
����������Lieutenant Charles Guillaume�������������: Officier de liaison d�tach� au 505� RAS
����������Lieutenant Auguste Augias�����������������: Officier d'approvisonnement
��������� M�decin Auxiliaire Roger Cavaill�s����� : Medecin du Groupement

Groupe AS 34
��������� Capitaine Henri Deloncle��������������������� : Commandant du Groupe
��������� Lieutenant Edouard Bourdillon������������ : Officier Adjoint tactique
��������� Lieutenant Henri Richard��������������������� : Officier d'�chelon

������������ 1� Batterie :
��������� Lieutenant Julien Barbant�������������������� : Commandant de la 1� Batterie
����������S/Lieutenant Alfred Duminil�������������������: Chef de la 1� Section
��������� S/Lieutenant Serge Quignard�������������� : Chef de la 2� Section

������������ 2� Batterie :
����������Lieutenant Jean Donne����������������������� �: Commandant de la 2� Batterie
��������� S/Lieutenant Alfred Duminil������������������ : Chef de la 1� Section
��������� S/Lieutenant Serge Quignard��������������� : Chef de la 2� Section

������������ 3� Batterie :
����������Lieutenant Pierre Thepenier������������������: Commandant de la 3� Batterie
��������� S/Lieutenant Abel Setze����������������������� : Chef de la 1� Section
��������������������-��������������������������������������������������� : Chef de la 2� Section

Groupe AS 35
���������� Capitaine Adrien Balland�����������������������: Commandant du Groupe
���������� Lieutenant Henri Testulat��������������������� : Officier Adjoint tactique
���������� Lieutenant Jean Claudel����������������������� : Officier d'�chelon

������������ 1� Batterie :
��������� Lt Philippe Guignabeaudet��������������������� : Commandant de la 1� Batterie
��������� S/Lieutenant Alfred Dufraisne���������������� : Chef de la 1� Section
������������������������� -��������������������������������������������� : Chef de la 2� Section

������������� 2� Batterie :
��������� Lieutenant Henri Durand������������������������� : Commandant de la 2� Batterie
��������� S/Lieutenant Henri Lambert�������������������� : Chef de la 1� Section
��������� S/Lieutenant Pierre Allard����������������������� : Chef de la 2� Section

������������� 3� Batterie :
���������� Lieutenant R�gis Seux���������������������������� : Commandant de la 3� Batterie
���������� S/Lieutenant Georges Baumann������������� : Chef de la 1� Section
���������� S/Lieutenant Marcel Frortin��������������������� : Chef de la 2� Section

AS 105�� (SRR du Groupement XI)

��������� Lieutenant Andr� Ch�roy������������������������� : Commandant de la SRR 105
��������� S/Lieutenant Alfred Toulleron������������������� : Officier Adjoint

Groupe AS 32�from Groupement XI, was not used by the american Army

Groupement d'AS n� IV��� (27 chars Schneider)

����������� Chefs d'Escadrons Chanoine��������������������: Commandant du Groupement
����������� Capitaine C. Gignoux��������������������������������: Officier Adjoint tactique
����������� S/Lieutenant L. Dupont���������������������������� : Officier de liaison
����������� S/Lieutenant L. Marcel����������������������������� : Officier Adjoint technique
����������� M�decin Auxiliaire Bernes-Lassere����������� : Medecin

�������������� Groupe AS 14
����������� Capitaine Liscoat�������������������������������������� : Commandant du Groupe

�������������� Groupe AS 17
������������ Capitaine E. de Sainte-Pereuse����������������: Commandant du Groupe



__________________


Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date:
Permalink   

Michel:
Nice detail on the French AS units. Here's another SC St Chamond Gp XIphoto from Groupement XI during training with AEF, 8 Oct 18 near Blercourt


__________________


Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date:
Permalink   

I don't have too many other St. Chamond shots from the NARA SC collection. Here's a fairly bad one. No caption on it unfortunately.
St Chamond tree



__________________


Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date:
Permalink   

Here's another view of the "US tank" #790" from the other side
Kod St Chamond

__________________


Field Marshal

Status: Offline
Posts: 461
Date:
Permalink   

Bonjour Steve,

The first photo is well "near Blercourt".

The wood behind the St Chamond is the Signy-la-Perche forest.

From September 16th 1918 to October 12th, 1918 this woods, south of Signy-la-Perche, were the rear base of the Groupement XI.

The place is called "Camp H" in French documents.

Blercourt is south of Signy-la-Perche and 10 km South-Weat from verdun

The Groupement XI used Dombasle-en-Argonne station to move by train.

It's not possible to give the Group's number of these two tanks (AS 34 or As 35 ? ) and the date - 8 Octobre - is probably very good.

On the second photo, the St Chamond is the number 62727 (writed in the middle of the side tank). Group and Battery of this tank are undknown.

If "790" is the number of tank, given by Army Signal Corps caption, this number is probably good.

On the other photo of this same tank, the ace on the the door is the ace of spade (First Battery).

The only problem is to know where and when. . . . .

With American soldiers on the photo, I think that is probably good for Groupement XI.

Michel



__________________
Anonymous

Date:
Permalink   

"US" in this context might simply mean UnServiceable.

__________________


Field Marshal

Status: Offline
Posts: 461
Date:
Permalink   

Tanker wrote:

Bonjour Steve,

The first photo is well "near Blercourt".

The wood behind the St Chamond is the Signy-la-Perche forest.

From September 16th 1918 to October 12th, 1918 this woods, south of Signy-la-Perche, were the rear base of the Groupement XI.

The place is called "Camp H" in French documents.

Blercourt is south of Signy-la-Perche and 10 km South-Weat from verdun

The Groupement XI used Dombasle-en-Argonne station to move by train.

It's not possible to give the Group's number of these two tanks (AS 34 or As 35 ? ) and the date - 8 Octobre - is probably very good.

On the second photo, the St Chamond is the number 62727 (written in the middle of the side tank). Group and Battery of this tank are undknown.

If "790" is the number of tank, given by Army Signal Corps caption, this number is probably good.

On the other photo of this same tank, the ace on the the door is the ace of spade (First Battery).

The only problem is to know where and when. . . . .

With American soldiers on the photo, I think that is probably good for Groupement XI.

Michel






__________________
Anonymous

Date:
Permalink   

Hi, 

The name of the village is Sivry la Perche.

Thanks for your work



__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard