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Post Info TOPIC: Another US St. Chamond?


Captain

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Another US St. Chamond?
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Here's a photo I found in the US Signal Corps collection some years ago of "US tank #790 knocked out supporting 90th Division 25 October 1918 Ferme de la Madeleine in the Meuse area". It is in all probability from a supporting French unit, but the "US" marking is curious. I have a much poorer shot from the front (if I can find the negative!)

Any ideas?

US St. Chamond

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Field Marshal

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Bonjour Steve,

It's, for me, a new an unknown photo !

Since September 3th, 1918 the St Chamond Grouping n° XI from Cdt Herlaut (AS 34 - Cne Henri Deloncle and AS 35 - Cne Adrien Balland) was on the order of the American Army.
On September 8th, 1918 - Grpt XI is under opcom 1th US Army Corps (AS 34 with 10° Brg - 5th DI US and AS 35 with 3° Brg- 2nd DI US )

12 Septmber - Grpt n° XI Fight in Regnieville sector with these two Divisions, and between 27 September to 4 October these tanks fight in Montfaucon's sector.
I am, for instance, not able to say if it is an AS 34 or AS 35 tank.

On October 2th, 1918 - Grpt XI is under opcom of 3th US ID.

This photo (25 October) was probably done after these fights. The location (Ferme de la Madeleine) is good for this period (and this fights). For this French Tank units there is no JMO (Journal de Marche et Opérations) in S.H.D Vincennes. Some informations in 5th RAS JMO, when Grpt XI was on the order of this Regiment.

It's, probably, a breaking down tank destroyed by the artillery. There is no report speaking of St Chamond destroyed during action.
On a very good photo, it will be, probably, possible to read the tank number (in white just in the middle of the tank). It's only the last 3 numbers. Série 5xx or 6xx for AS 34 et AS 35 Group.

On the map, with destroyed tanks around Montfaucon, are only report destroyed Renault FT and one Schneider . . . . Destroyed St Chamond are, perhaps, already pick up.

I have also a bad copy of a beaufitul photo coming from "Historical and Pictorial Review - 2nd Infantry Regiment - 5th ID". Members of the American HQ Division and AS 35 Group.

I hope it's the first one of a very long serie . . . . coming from United States !

Michel



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Captain

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Michel:
I'm not sure which of the Signal Corps photos you have seen, so here's a few. I will post them separately. Here's a pic of US and French officers from Groupement XI, 8 October 1918, Blercourt during joint training.

St. Chamond Blercourt

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Captain

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Here's another one, Le Poilu, #691, Chavigny, 18 July 1918St Chamond Chavigny

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Captain

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A Char caisson, Gutrey, 16 June 1918Char Caisson

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Field Marshal

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Bonsoir Steve,

The Recovery St Chamond (third photo) is near Cutry (and not Gutrey). This village is West of Missy-au-Bois. This tank was from Grpt XI or XII (SRR 105 or SRR 107). These 2 Grpt were fighting with the Big Red One.

The "Poilu" is a St Chamond from Groupe AS 34 (Grpt XI). As und Number are undknown.
The number is under the front machine-gun (N 5xx or N6xx)
It's probably possible to read it on a better photo.
If the date is good (18 July 1918), this tank could not be there in Chavigny. If the village is good this photo was taken on July 23th, 1918. It was not the fight with the Big Red One (from 16 to 19/7/18) but an other one with the 58th French ID near Longpont.
With the Big Red One, Grpt XI and XII were fighting in a sector north of La Glau's Farm and Cravençon's farm.
It's probably a mistake on the caption of this photo by photographs of the Army signal Corps.

I exactly spoke of the first photo. It's a better quality and I have now a problem.
For me, the French officer on left was a Lieutenant. It is probably a Lt-Colonel and, perhaps the Lt-Colonel Emile Wahl (1th AS Brigade Commander).

My own photo is larger on left with two other French officers. On the book, the French officers name given (from left to right) were :
Cne Withers, Lt Threpenier, Lt Brandillon, Lt Barbant, Lt Fortin, Cne Halleck, Cne Deloncle and Cdt Herlaut.

I think that Herlaut is on right (with a stick) and Deloncle just behind him (with a beret). I am now not sure for the other. . . . . !
 
The First French As Brigade was under command of 1th American Army on September 9th, 1918.
(Note n° 1926 P/1 Artilleried'Assaut/1° brigade/Etat-Major du 9 septembre 1918)

Ordre de Bataille de l'AS mise à la disposition de la 1° Armée US

Etat-Major de la 1° Brigade d'AS :
                       Colonel Emile Wahl                  : Commandant de la 1° Brigade
                       Capitaine Jean Perré               : Officier Adjoint
                       Lieutenant Alban de Virel         : Officier Adjoint
                       S/Lieutenant Lucien Chelli        : Officier Adjoint

505° RAS :    (225 Chars Renault FT)

Etat-Major du 505° RAS
                       Chef de Bataillon Mare             : Commandant de la 1° Brigade 
                       Capitaine d'Armancourt            : Officier Adjoint
                       Lieutenant Moretton                 : Officier Adjoint technique
                       S/Lieutenant Pernot                 : Officier Adjoint administratif

13° Bataillon de Chars Légers
                      Chef de Bataillon Louis Duclos   : Commandant du Bataillon
                      Lieutenant Edmond Cosset        : Officier Adjoint tactique
                      S/Lieutenant Louis Récamier      : Officier Adjoint technique
                      S/Lieutenant Xavier Gistucci       : Officier de liaison
                      Médecin Auxiliaire L. Jondeau     : Médecin

            AS 337
        Capitaine Gustave Liaras            : Commandant de l'AS 337
        Lieutenant Paul Hé                     : Chef de la 1° Section
        Aspirant Paul Barré                     : Chef de la 2° Section
        Lieutenant Gaëtan Cosset          : Chef de la 3° Section
        Lieutenant Maurice Poullain        : Chef de l'échelon

            AS 338
        Lieutenant Yves Laticule              : Commandant de l'AS 338
        Lieutenant Raoul Giraud              : Chef de la 1° Section
        Lieutenant Georges Dewarin       : Chef de la 2° Section
        S/Lieutenant Jean Frauchemont  : Chef de la 3° Section
        Aspirant André Bigourdin             : Chef de l'échelon 

            AS 339
        Lieutenant H. Hamel                     : Commandant de l'AS 339

14° Bataillon de Chars Légers
                      Chef de Bataillon J. Guillot           : Commandant du Bataillon
                      Lieutenant A. Paul                       : Officier Adjoint tactique
                      Aspirant H. Bloch                          : Officier de liaison
                      S/Lieutenant E. Bellanger            : Officier Adjoint technique
                      Médecin Auxiliaire Vergeau          : Médecin

            AS 340
         Capitaine J. Maitre                        : Commandant de l'AS 340

            AS 341
         Capitaine J. Toutain                      : Commandant de l'AS 341

            AS 342
         Lieutenant A. Jacquot                   : Commandant de l'AS 342

14° Bataillon de Chars Légers
                      Chef de Bataillon Eugène Richard  : Commandant du Bataillon
                      Lieutenant André Hallier                : Officier Adjoint tactique
                      S/Lieutenant Louis Frison              : Officier Adjoint technique
                      S/Lieutenant Henri Ratheaux         : Officier de liaison
                      Médecin Auxiliaire Louis Andoli       : Medecin

            AS 343
         Cne Arnaud Brunet de Monthélie   : Commandant de l'AS 343
         Lieutenant Jacques Barnaud          : Chef de la 1° Section
         S/Lieutenant Louis Latapie            : Chef de la 2° Section
         Lieutenant Albert Vitu                    : Chef de la 3° Section
         S/Lieutenant Eugène Lévi              : Chef de l'échelon

            AS 344
          Lieutenant Paul More-Chevalier     : Commandant de l'AS 344
          Lieutenant Jacques Goguyer          : Chef de la 1° Section
          S/Lieutenant Sadi Solau                 : Chef de la 2° Section
          Lieutenant Camille Meyerfeld         : Chef de la 3° Section
          S/Lieutenant André Seval               : Chef de l'échelon

            AS 345
          Lieutenant Jean Ragaine                 : Commandant de l'AS 345
          Lieutenant Jacques Mathieu            : Chef de la 1° Section
          Lieutenant Gaston Prost                 : Chef de la 2° Section
          Lieutenant Jean Ménard                  : Chef de la 3° Section
          S/Lieutenant Gabriel Raffier             : Chef de l'échelon

AS 104 (Section de Ravitaillement et de Réparation)

          Lieutenant Schmid : Commandant de la SRR 104

Groupement d'AS n° XI   (27 chars Saint Chamond)

          Chef de Bataillon Auguste Herlaut      : Commandant du Groupement
          Capitaine Yves Rihouet                       : Officier Adjoint tactique
          Lieutenant Alexis Philippon                 : Officier Adjoint technique
          Lieutenant Henri Riboulet                    : Officier de liaison
          Lieutenant Charles Guillaume             : Officier de liaison détaché au 505° RAS
          Lieutenant Auguste Augias                 : Officier d'approvisonnement
          Médecin Auxiliaire Roger Cavaillés      : Medecin du Groupement

Groupe AS 34
          Capitaine Henri Deloncle                      : Commandant du Groupe
          Lieutenant Edouard Bourdillon             : Officier Adjoint tactique
          Lieutenant Henri Richard                      : Officier d'échelon

             1° Batterie :
          Lieutenant Julien Barbant                     : Commandant de la 1° Batterie
          S/Lieutenant Alfred Duminil                   : Chef de la 1° Section
          S/Lieutenant Serge Quignard               : Chef de la 2° Section

             2° Batterie :
          Lieutenant Jean Donne                         : Commandant de la 2° Batterie
          S/Lieutenant Alfred Duminil                   : Chef de la 1° Section
          S/Lieutenant Serge Quignard                : Chef de la 2° Section

             3° Batterie :
          Lieutenant Pierre Thepenier                  : Commandant de la 3° Batterie
          S/Lieutenant Abel Setze                        : Chef de la 1° Section
                    -                                                    : Chef de la 2° Section

Groupe AS 35
           Capitaine Adrien Balland                       : Commandant du Groupe
           Lieutenant Henri Testulat                      : Officier Adjoint tactique
           Lieutenant Jean Claudel                        : Officier d'échelon

             1° Batterie :
          Lt Philippe Guignabeaudet                      : Commandant de la 1° Batterie
          S/Lieutenant Alfred Dufraisne                 : Chef de la 1° Section
                          -                                              : Chef de la 2° Section

              2° Batterie :
          Lieutenant Henri Durand                          : Commandant de la 2° Batterie
          S/Lieutenant Henri Lambert                     : Chef de la 1° Section
          S/Lieutenant Pierre Allard                        : Chef de la 2° Section

              3° Batterie :
           Lieutenant Régis Seux                             : Commandant de la 3° Batterie
           S/Lieutenant Georges Baumann              : Chef de la 1° Section
           S/Lieutenant Marcel Frortin                      : Chef de la 2° Section

AS 105   (SRR du Groupement XI)

          Lieutenant André Chéroy                          : Commandant de la SRR 105
          S/Lieutenant Alfred Toulleron                    : Officier Adjoint

Groupe AS 32 from Groupement XI, was not used by the american Army

Groupement d'AS n° IV     (27 chars Schneider)

            Chefs d'Escadrons Chanoine                    : Commandant du Groupement
            Capitaine C. Gignoux                                : Officier Adjoint tactique
            S/Lieutenant L. Dupont                             : Officier de liaison
            S/Lieutenant L. Marcel                              : Officier Adjoint technique
            Médecin Auxiliaire Bernes-Lassere            : Medecin

               Groupe AS 14
            Capitaine Liscoat                                       : Commandant du Groupe

               Groupe AS 17
             Capitaine E. de Sainte-Pereuse                : Commandant du Groupe



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Michel:
Nice detail on the French AS units. Here's another SC St Chamond Gp XIphoto from Groupement XI during training with AEF, 8 Oct 18 near Blercourt


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I don't have too many other St. Chamond shots from the NARA SC collection. Here's a fairly bad one. No caption on it unfortunately.
St Chamond tree



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Captain

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Here's another view of the "US tank" #790" from the other side
Kod St Chamond

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Field Marshal

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Bonjour Steve,

The first photo is well "near Blercourt".

The wood behind the St Chamond is the Signy-la-Perche forest.

From September 16th 1918 to October 12th, 1918 this woods, south of Signy-la-Perche, were the rear base of the Groupement XI.

The place is called "Camp H" in French documents.

Blercourt is south of Signy-la-Perche and 10 km South-Weat from verdun

The Groupement XI used Dombasle-en-Argonne station to move by train.

It's not possible to give the Group's number of these two tanks (AS 34 or As 35 ? ) and the date - 8 Octobre - is probably very good.

On the second photo, the St Chamond is the number 62727 (writed in the middle of the side tank). Group and Battery of this tank are undknown.

If "790" is the number of tank, given by Army Signal Corps caption, this number is probably good.

On the other photo of this same tank, the ace on the the door is the ace of spade (First Battery).

The only problem is to know where and when. . . . .

With American soldiers on the photo, I think that is probably good for Groupement XI.

Michel



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Anonymous

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"US" in this context might simply mean UnServiceable.

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Tanker wrote:

Bonjour Steve,

The first photo is well "near Blercourt".

The wood behind the St Chamond is the Signy-la-Perche forest.

From September 16th 1918 to October 12th, 1918 this woods, south of Signy-la-Perche, were the rear base of the Groupement XI.

The place is called "Camp H" in French documents.

Blercourt is south of Signy-la-Perche and 10 km South-Weat from verdun

The Groupement XI used Dombasle-en-Argonne station to move by train.

It's not possible to give the Group's number of these two tanks (AS 34 or As 35 ? ) and the date - 8 Octobre - is probably very good.

On the second photo, the St Chamond is the number 62727 (written in the middle of the side tank). Group and Battery of this tank are undknown.

If "790" is the number of tank, given by Army Signal Corps caption, this number is probably good.

On the other photo of this same tank, the ace on the the door is the ace of spade (First Battery).

The only problem is to know where and when. . . . .

With American soldiers on the photo, I think that is probably good for Groupement XI.

Michel




 



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Anonymous

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Hi, 

The name of the village is Sivry la Perche.

Thanks for your work



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