Landships II

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Looking for pictures / diagrams etc of the Krupp 12cm FH

SASH155 · Major

One problem, those Ottoman 12cm L/11.6 field howitzers were probably of the earlier C/93 (M. 93) pattern without a recoil system, except that they presumably had a spade recoil brake under the carriage. As for the M.03 (or M.04?) 12cm L/14 FH- an example of this howitzer is, allegedly, on display at a museum�in Turkey, however�I am beginning to suspect that it may only be a captured Russian 122mm M-1909, and until I see markings from the breech ring or elsewhere, I�will continue to hold this suspicion; see the photo of this gun on Overvalwagens- there�are no reports I have seen yet as to how many of these guns Turkey took delivery of (presumably a few batteries at most), and there is little evidence they were actually built there. If Ottoman Turkey did indeed take delivery of such a weapon, and I see no reason to doubt that they did, as�some reports seem to indicate that they did, it would be�almost identical�in design, size and dimensions to the Russian 122mm M-1909, the Swiss 12cm M-1912 and the Dutch "12 houwitser L/12" of 1908.

-- Edited by SASH155 on Sunday 7th of February 2010 07:03:39 PM

SASH155 · Major

Here is that photo of the supposed 12cm (L/12 or L/14?) M.03 (M.04?) field howitzer from the Overwalwagens forum.

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

The list of manufacture is from the offical source for the armoury in question. The only non QF guns in the list were the 130 8.7cm FK L24 - which were remanufactured as a stop gap & for fortresses. The details from CharlieC have been confirmed by a Native Turkish poster from the Hat Forum separately.

It appears I was out by a year please see image below. I note that Turkish sources indicate that atleast some of theirs did have shields & they had QF's of Krupp 12cm's for the Balkan Wars. The image is a scan from Hogg via forum.boinaslava.net
(I think, gets a little difficult as I have been pick scraps up all over the place).

Thanks for the photos of what I assume is the later M1909 (or 08 or 10 or 12 depending on who's dating is being used). Do you have a photo of the front?

As usual dimensions would help.

Re the "earlier C/93 (M. 93) pattern without a recoil system, except that they presumably had a spade recoil brake under the carriage." Do you or any one have good images of this & some dimensions? As usual dimensions would help.
�

The only pre QF Turkish 12cm Howitzer info I have are actually French models with short recoil systems! See thread below:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=32765455

kieffer · Commander in Chief

hi Brennan,

some dimensions of the Dutch 12 houwitser lang 12 are:
barrel length: 1,44m
barrel weight: 470 kg
overall weight: 1177 kg
Vo: 300 m/sec
range: max 6100m
crew: 1 (nco I guess) and 6 gunners

It's not much but I hope it's of some use,
regards, Kieffer

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Many thanks - it all helps. If anyone has data on wheel diameter or a photo with people in it so I could estimate it, that would be great!

All the best,

Brennan

MCP · Captain

German designation :		120mm Hubitze L/14
Calibre :		120mm L/14
Weight of the barrel :		480 kg
Weight in action :		1320 kg
Weight in marching order :		2170 kg
Weight of the ammo wagon :		2095 kg
Barrel length :		1680 m
Height of line of fire :		1000 mm
Shield thickness :		3.5 mm
Battering charge :		480 g of nitro-glycerine
H.E. Shell	weight :	20.4 kg bursting charge : 2.1 kg of Lyddite
	max. range :	6560 m
Shrapnel	weight :	20.4 kg bursting charge : 210 g of black powder 650 bullets x 16 g
	max. range :	6400 m
Muzzle velocity :		300 m/s
Max. range :		6950 m
Elevation :		+ 43� / - 5�
Traversing angle :		4�
Recoil�:		1.09 m
Height of wheels�:		1.23 m
Track�:		1.48 m
Transport :		drawn by six horses
Ammunition :		gun limber - 16 shells, wagon - 30 shells
Remarks : Quick firing field howitzer with rear trunnions and constant long recoil. It has spring recoil system, single-motion wedge breech mechanism, traverse on pivot. It was equipped with reciprocating arc and panorama sights. This howitzer was adopted by Switzerland in 1912 and Holland in 1914 and was tested by Sweden and Italy. Turkey ordered a controlled-recoil howitzer, similar to this, but weighting 1370 kg. AFIK Turkey never received their howitzers since both in 1912 and 1914 the Turkish Army had no quick firing field howitzers.

�

SASH155 · Major

I found that photo on the Overvalwagens site; unfortunately and inexplicably there was no photo there of the front of that howitzer (personally, when I take arty. photos I take multiple shots of at the very least three different angles). I believe the Voinaslava site has at least one photo of a Turkish M.93 12cm FH, but in Bulgarian use after its capture. As to that copy of the page from the Ian V. Hogg book, I would approach it with some caution, especially any John Batchelor illustration, which can vary in quality from excellent to execrable; the exposed long springs in the drawing shown mounted alongside the cradle match nothing I�have seen in Krupp weapons of this era; having said that, I would love to see any photos of the gun this drawing was modelled upon. As for Hogg, he tends to be very Anglo-centric in his artillery studies, and makes some egregious mistakes/omissions when dealing with non-Anglo-Saxon ordnance. Also, I have not seen an M.05 designation used in any of the lists�I have seen�of Ottoman artillery for this particular howitzer, however some seem to indicate that it was either an M.03 or M.04. P.S. re:�AFIK Turkey never received their howitzers since both in 1912 and 1914 the Turkish Army had no quick firing field howitzers: this statement seems somewhat overbroad, as one could consider the 22 Krupp 15cm L/14 FHs delivered�from 1905 to 1908 QF weapons, as could one the later and�extremely rare and obscure 1911-12 vintage Krupp 15cm L/10.5 (L/11?) FH, of which 36 were delivered in 1913 (this was the unusual FH seen in some photos with a top mounted recoil system).�

-- Edited by SASH155 on Friday 12th of February 2010 01:24:04 AM

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

I have found all of Overvalwagens, Boinaslava International Forum (http://forum.boinaslava.net/forumdisplay.php?f=265) & Axis History Forum, to be an odd mixed of almost doctrinaire statements (on incomplete or contradictory data) & focused on specific precision to loss of clarity. Classically key posters consider that there are only "true" QF & Non QF guns, ignoring the whole range of partial or short or spade spring weapons - classing them in with guns with no compensation at all!

A pre Balkan war (1908 or 1909) ref to the Tophane making limited progress with a small batch (6)�of QF's has been taken as a signal that the turks didn't make any!! Despite pieces listed on the production list that Have To Be QF's? furious

Found similar issues re Balkan Wars "Capture" transfers of Artillery. Here a great example is several sources refering to 144 servicable pieces of Krupp 75mm captured by the Serbs from the Turks, but another just after the end of the 2nd Balkan war listing only 24 in service inventory. Their conclusion that the other 120 had to be junk???? Not that they had yet to be checked, serviced & past fit or repaired (in minor ways - wheels, struts, springs etc) for service!!!??? Thus the records that state that Krupp 75mm were used to support the 2nd Bann Divisions in 1914 must be false, despite more QF's being captured in 1915 than the Serbs ever bought??? (even allowing for captures from the Austro-Hungarians!) confuse

.

One thing I have noted is Military records are VERY careful about captured & destroyed! Captured is capable of being reused, Destroyed is junk unless entirely rebuilt!

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

refering to the remark on the list: as far as I know, the Dutch had 12 lang 14 Bofors guns. Because of the war they could'nt and probably did'nt want to order Krupp guns. The Bofors guns were taken in service in 1915, 50 were bought and 48 of these in service in 1940.

regards, Kieffer

Date: Feb 12, 2010

SASH155 wrote:

I found that photo on the Overvalwagens site; unfortunately and inexplicably there was no photo there of the front of that howitzer (personally, when I take arty. photos I take multiple shots of at the very least three different angles).
�
I took that picture illegally during summer 2006. This piece and the others of the series, like the HIH 10,5 cms, were in a patio of the museum that was closed to the public. I was sent away by a guard, complained to another guard who led me in again. I took some quick shots next to a very nervous guard and quickly ran away, when a squad of armed soldiers rushed in, possibly alerted by the first guard. Nothing happened, but I was shadowed through the premises during the rest of my visit. True story. Next time I ll try to picture the front of the howitzer, ok?

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Brennan,
a diagram of the 12 lang 12 and a picture of the 12 lang 14 Bofors of the Dutch army

regards, Kieffer

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Thanks, that is a very distinctive breech shape.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Brennan,

may be some useful sites:
www.grebbeberg.nl
www.nederlandsartilleriemuseum.nl
www.41afdva.net

regards Kieffer

ain92 · Sergeant

Here're several "later 12 cm" from a Swiss museum in Full, it seems to be the only non-modernized howitzer of such type in Switzerland:

And these two photos are from 2010 reenactment in Bavaria, looks like the same howitzer. Do anybody have any ideas what's the origin of it and how could the howitzer get to Germany?

And several photos of 4.8-inch Russian howitzers M1909 you can find here. If anyone wants more photos I can upload a dozen of mine.

PS

Attached a photo exhibited in the Military-historical Museum of Artillery, Engineer and Signal Corps.

-- Edited by ain92 on Wednesday 13th of March 2013 04:56:15 PM