This image is a picture of the memorial tank at Ryde, Isle of Wight. I can't quite make out the serial number at the rear. Has anyone with better eyes or greater knowledge of MKIV Female Serial numbers a suggestion as to what it might be? It would be nice to be able to find out a little about this Tanks service history. It has the unditching beam rails present, but sports an unusual style of the white red white stripes (which of course may be have been added later!)
I must confess I'm the David Longster Mentioned on the Memorial site! I've been helping the site owner find some info and a picture of the Newport Tank.
Your idea is one that didn't occur to me, (I'm too used to relying on the web for research!) If I can get a copy of the original photo it may actually be much clearer and likely the museum will be able to tell me more.
I've been following the development of your MK I plans and they are very impressive, can't wait to see the final result!
Dave x
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The number looks like 5050 to me, after I tweaked the photo a bit.
However, I think that is a made up number; I thought all the Mark IV females had numbers in the 2000s. Probably wrong and I'm hopeful that someone can correct me on this point.
If the stripes are made up (and it looks like they are), could the number be also?
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I reckon you could be right. Every photo of a Female (of the MKIV tank variety!) I've poured over since trying to solve this puzzle showed a serial number beginning with 2***
There is postcard image of Ryde canoe Lake on the Memorial Website with the tank in the distance and in that shot there were no railings around it.
I wonder if, when the railings were installed the tank was given a fresh coat of paint covering all the original markings and the number and stripes were painted back in later (by someone who clearly hadn't done the proper research! )
Its a pity as the Tank has unditching beam rails, so it could have been a genuine veteran.
Dave
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I'm pretty sure that the number is 8050. There was, I think, a thread about this tank on this forum or the great war forum. Serial numbers for females were also in at least the 4000 series as well. The AWM's tank is 4643.
-- Edited by Mark Hansen on Saturday 6th of February 2010 09:55:20 PM
Many thanks for that tip. I've just signed up to the Great War Forum and have found out some very interesting facts about the Ryde Tank!
The posting is a couple of years old from a member called sidearm. I wonder if he is on this site?
It seems that the Ryde machine started life as a Male and fought at Cambrai, but had female sponsons fitted at some point in its life. So effectively its had a sex change!
Anyone know about Male MK IV serial numbers did they start as a 5*** or 8***
Dave
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Conspiracy theory? Maybe that's just what 'they' want you to think...
No worries. Answers to your questions: Yes, sidearm is on this forum but as Gwyn Evans and would most likely be able to help you even more than I can. Male serials also existed in the 6000 and 8000 range. Not sure if the females did also but Mk IV supply tanks were also in the 6000's and 8000's.
Well, I shall try to help anyway. I've been researching Mark IV production for some years now and central to that has been a study of Mark IV serial numbers because they're quite revealing. Essentially they are a code, which allows you to say who built the tank and when. In theory you can then say something about the various sub-types of Mark IV - not just Male, Female or Tender but what type of radiator it had originally, etc. Anyway, I'm well on the way to understanding how these numbers work.
This tank is 8050 and is particularly interesting because it is not a Female. There are a limited number of Mark IVs recorded as "Male with Female sponsons" and this is one of them. Several presentation tanks are of this type. You can't really tell from the exterior except that the serial number doesn't match its appearance.
8050 fought as a Male at the Battle of Cambrai as D46 "Dragon III" of 10 Section 12 Company D Battalion commanded on 20 November 1917 by 2/Lt JT. Clark. I have no other details of the tank's service history, although it was still in action on 23 November.
Incidentally, there are no Mark IV serial numbers of the form 5xxx. Only Mark VIIs.
Sid - I have seen your PM and will respond. My attention is presently being requested elsewhere...
Gwyn (aka Sidearm)
-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Sunday 7th of February 2010 07:48:52 PM
8050 would have been a late production Male built by the Metropolitan Carriage Wagon & Finance Company at their plants in and around Birmingham, probably Saltley. Probable construction date around September 1917.
I attach some more photos of this tank.
Gwyn
-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Sunday 7th of February 2010 07:47:52 PM
I can add that at its presentation ceremony Tank 8050 was formally christened 'Louise', (with the traditional breaking of a bottle of champagne across its bow) after Miss Barton the then Lady Mayoress of Ryde .
I feel a purchase of the Emhar MKIV Female coming on... or should I get the Male or maybe build an Hermaphrodite version!
Dave
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Very interesting that this was the final resting-place of D46 - as you say, she fought as a male tank at the Battle of Cambrai, and is recorded as firing 40 6-pounder shells and 600 rounds of SAA during the attack on Flesquieres on 20 November. D46 turned back with mechanical trouble and ended up back near the first objective with engine trouble. She was back in action on 23 November as part of the composite No 2 Company, firing 200 6-pounder rounds and 5,300 rounds SAA, before returning to the rallying-point, short of petrol and with ammunition exhausted.
Thats fascinating to learn more of the service history of about Tank 8050.
I would be interested in finding out when and why it came to be fitted with Female sponsons.
It would surely have reduced its capabilities as a fighting machine due to the built in stowage racks for 300 or so rounds of six pounder shells and the reduced amount of stowage for SAA.
Perhaps it had its sponsons swapped after the war when it was selected to become a presentation tank?
Dave
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Hi Dave, I agree it would be interesting to know why this happened, but unless Gwyn Evans can shed any more light on this then we may never know. I'm especially interested in this tank as I'm one of the team who have been researching the history of D51 Deborah, another D Battalion tank which was excavated from the battlefield at Cambrai in 1998 - for more details see http://www.tank-cambrai.com
Strange to think that they went into battle a few yards apart, but suffered such different fates. Deborah was knocked out by artillery, killing five of her crew, but was buried on the battlefield and is now preserved as a memorial. Dragon III survived the battle but ended up changing sex, then provided a backdrop for holidaymakers' snapshots, and was finally cut up for scrap. I suppose that's history for you.
I don't have my books etc to hand and a teenager is as ever hounding me for the use of this computer... but I can tell you that some (yes, I can quantify this but not without said books) Mark IV Males had their sponsons removed and replaced with Female sponsons during the war. I do have a theory why this happened, but as yet no photographic or documentary evidence to prove it. Essentially I suspect that as the Mark IV was replaced by Mark Vs etc in the fighting battalions some Mark V and V* Females were converted to Composites by the addition of a Male Mark IV sponson. The Female sponsons were then put onto some of the Mark IV Males. There are photos of Mark Vs with Mark IV sponsons but I can't prove definitely that any of them are Composites. One certainly isn't - it has a Mark IV sponson on one side and a Mark V sponson on the other.
It is possible some more were converted post war, due to sensitivities about putting cannon in public places with the recent memory of recent Bolshevik revolution elsewhere in Europe.
Thanks for this Gwyn - I remember reading in 'A Company of Tanks' about the problems they had in reattaching sponsons, so I guess a fair bit of improvisation went on.
I have attached a picture showing Dragon on her way to war - the name is just visible on the front tank, loaded with a fascine and being transported to the battle of Cambrai.
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