Landships II

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Belgian army dog cart

gemsco · Captain

Hi Kieffer,

The Brussels Army Museum did represent one in full, but I don't remember which type of machinegun they did use. It is in their temporary exhibition about animals in the Great War. For sure, after disassembling, this small diorama will be preserved and put in the permanent exhibition, but when ? If you're nearby go and have a look.

Regards
gemsco

-- Edited by gemsco on Tuesday 16th of March 2010 06:28:57 PM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Gemsco,

thank you for your reply! The Brussel cart is the Maxim, I am trying to get the catalogue of the exhibition Hondse Oorlog which you are referring to.
I tried my luck on other sites, but till now I've got only a few (but very friendly) reactions.
Well, it's not over till it's over!

regards, Kieffer

James H · Legend

I suspect that these are�commandeered civilian carts. They don't look very military and the Hotchkiss seems to be just placed on top. The cart for the Maxim (with the bicycle-type wheels) looks more purpose-built. Somewhere I posted a pic a while ago of wooden-wheeled carts captured by German naval troops. I'll try to find it.

Rectalgia · Legend

James H wrote:
...Somewhere I posted a pic a while ago of wooden-wheeled carts captured by German naval troops. I'll try to find it.

Perhaps it was the pic from this Axis History forum? - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=145992 (about 1/3 of the way down).

By heck the British outfit pictured next on that page looks pretty spiffy. Whippets are they? But largish for that breed, more of a fully-sized greyhound perhaps? I would foresee problems there. Principally, when the first shell bursts nearby, how to catch the buggers when they do a bolter. Aussie kangaroo dogs would have been better (but harder to catch if they spooked - always it is compromise).

Kieffer, I've seen a diorama somewhere with Belgian machine gun and ammunition carts, dogs and (if I recall correctly) handlers but it was only a tiny picture, not worth bringing 'here' IMO.

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Rectalgia, that was ndeed the British expierence with dog drawn carts. As they did not have 'trained' dogs they adapted what they had & it did not go well. The nature & training of the existing english breeds did not suit this role at all well.

Rectalgia · Legend

Thanks Brennan, interesting ... pit ponies would have been a good bet I would think but I guess they were all fully employed in "essential works" already (phlegmatic beasts from the stories told by the old miners - if they could survive mischievous lads igniting their flatuses they could handle pretty-well anything, one would imagine.)

Kieffer - not sure if you might have seen this one already from War Illustrated Volume I (more pigeons too!) - here is an image capture of the dog, cart and handler - http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3710/animals2.jpg. There might be more in other volumes, there are 10 of them starting http://www.archive.org/details/warillustratedal01hammuoft and finishing http://www.archive.org/details/warillustratedal10hammuoft (Canadian Libraries). Unfortunately it is impossible for me to browse these without being massively side-tracked along the way - but I am reasonably sure there is no dog cart material in volume II.

[Edit - ah, only the British, "The mortality among these brave dogs has been unfortunately high."]

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Wednesday 17th of March 2010 05:46:03 AM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

the Maxim cart (must look up the official name) was certainly purpose built, there was an ammo trailer too.
The Dutch, inspired by the Belgians, adapted carts in 1915. Belgium and Holland had that tradition of dog carts.
In Great Britain it was banned, considered as cruel. The French apparently did some tests but having not a proper breed of dogs they skipped the project.
The dog breed was a Mastif, called Matin-Belge and was the right breed for pulling carts, strong and enduring.
They could easily pull a load up to 300kg, and they had a big appetite, lots of bread and meat, if possible mixed with vegetables.
The breed does not exist anymore but they try to re breed it now.
Cruel, in this case these dogs were treated very well, with all medical attention and plenty feeding.
I have seen a picture of German carts with machine guns on them but I must look that up. It seems they had that traction too ("official" picture with troops and carts lined up).
This wooden cart appears at least in two different pictures, I think they were older types.
Some show a wooden cart with square side planks instead of the curved ones.
If the square carts are military or just taken from civilians, I don't know. May be these are another variant too, may be just for supplies or ammo?

Thank you all for your reactions, will search your leads!
regards, Kieffer

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

The German Marines used captured Belgian equipments - Dogs & Carts definately, possibly even Maxims as Belgian stuff was Mauser derived & in 7.92mm / 7.98mm ( as far as I recall this is basically like the difference between US 0.30 cal & Brit 0.303 - the way things are measured - the rise of the lands is the smaller, from the base of the lands the larger).

James H · Legend

Rectalgia-that's the pic. I thank you.

Apparently, the Belgian Kennel Club says the breed� might be extinct, but others say it isn't. These seem to be very similar:

�http://www.debelgischemastiff.be/HerdenkingWOIZonnebeke/zonnebeke01.html

Also some nice reenactors' uniforms here, including Romanian.

Rectalgia · Legend

James, you are welcome. And yes, those uniforms are good to see - a little pride, a little remembrance and yes, a little play. All good things I think.

Brennan - Belgians used 7.92/8x57JS in WW1? I thought it was 7.65x53 (or 54, no-one can really tell any more). It has to be said the Belgians used lots of different 'calibres' over time. I recall getting hold of an M98-actioned 30-06 of Belgian military surplus origin once.

Anyway, as you say, cartridge designations are a bit of a nightmare. The nominal bore is usually (something like) the bullet diameter less 0.008". So a ".30 cal" (7.62 mm) uses a 0.308" bullet, the .303 a bullet of 0.311" diameter and so on. But the 8x57 came in two sizes - 0.318" bullet, nominal bore about 7.87 mm and (from 1905) 0.323" bullet, nominal bore about 8 mm. The larger, later bore was designated as the "S" (as in 8x57JS which is the same as 8x57IS). And the differences conceivably raise a safety issue.

The cartridge cases were the same apart from that slight neck diameter difference and (hopefully) head-stamp. It doesn't help that either one has been described at various times as 7.9 mm, 7.92 mm or 8 mm. I've also seen 0.315", presumably the nominal bore of a weapon for the .323" bullet. But you never can tell with the 8x57. The difference is only "five thou" but enough to cause significant over-pressure problems if a .323" bullet is fed through the tighter bore of the older rifle. That was the M88 infantry rifle, a variant of the Mannlicher, not a Mauser design at all. I don't think I would be firing one of those, just in case the ammunition might be wrong.

jagjetta · Brigadier

Kiefer,
I am attaching a couple of photos from my collection that might be useful for you in your project.

Remember the gallant, little Belgium
John A-G

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi John,

thank you for the pictures! It seems that according to the picture with the helmeted soldiers, dog carts were still used later on. I thought that they weren't used anymore after the Belgian retreat to the Yser, being entrenched there.

James: you were right with your assuming the wooden carts were commandeered! I heard that just now from a gentleman and enthusiast dog cart owner. Being short of transport the army took them from farmers etc.
I had the slight hope they were army types too, and that a prescription or a diagram would still exist.
Wishful thinking...an expression that's literally adapted in Dutch language too.

Regards, Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi James,
somewhere I read that they started a re-breeding program in 2006 I think.

regards, Kieffer

James H wrote:

Rectalgia-that's the pic. I thank you.

Apparently, the Belgian Kennel Club says the breed� might be extinct, but others say it isn't. These seem to be very similar:

http://www.debelgischemastiff.be/HerdenkingWOIZonnebeke/zonnebeke01.html

Also some nice reenactors' uniforms here, including Romanian.

�

jagjetta · Brigadier

kieffer wrote:

Hi John,

thank you for the pictures! It seems that according to the picture with the helmeted soldiers, dog carts were still used later on. I thought that they weren't used anymore after the Belgian retreat to the Yser, being entrenched there.

In this photo, it appears if the machine-gun carts are hand-drawn.� A couple of neat details in the photo include the cloth helmets covers with vents along the comb -- a very typical Belgian feature---and the M2 gas mask canisters.

John

�

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi John,

that's another nice picture again! Is that a Colt, on your picture, or am I wrong?

regards, Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi John,

and as for details...the way of buttoning the mask sachet is pictured here.
Oh oh were going of topic again I am afraid...

regards, Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

kieffer wrote:

...Oh oh were going of topic again I am afraid...

Indeed - this is far more on topic:

http://www.thehistorybluff.com/?p=1614. Well, the whole topic is off-topic for the Tanks forum but ...

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Rectalgia

The Brits are users of one of the "other systems" so the Bullet for 0.30 cal US & British 0.303 are inter changeble. A less I lernt many years ago when I still actively huntered & shot, as the best Deer round then was listed as a 0.30 cal (fully jackected but hollow point) but gave better performance at standard loads than the offered soft or hollow point 0.303 rounds then on offer.

Hence 0.30", .303", 7.62mm, 7.69mm & 7.7mm rounds (this is the riskiest due to�Mauser designations)�almost inevitably have Bullets of the same actual calibre (ie Diameter).�Equally 0.36", 0.38" (& 0.38 special), 0.380" (& 0.380" Auto), 0.357" & 9mm (Parabellum, Browing Long & Short)�have Bullets that are effectively the same calibre (ie Diameter).

Yes a real nightmare even if one is carefull. So often the sources do not give anything like the needed degree of precision. An example is 7mm Spanish Mauser that is functionally (there is some difference in powder� & weight of charge & primers) the same round as 7mm & 7.7mm or 7.6mm Turkish Mauser & likewise to Serbian 7mm or 7.57mm or 7.65mm Mauser. I have a contact who collects guns & rounds & (he & I) showed this one to some friends by practical example - including shooting them.

Rectalgia · Legend

Brennan wrote:

Rectalgia

The Brits are users of one of the "other systems" so the Bullet for 0.30 cal US & British 0.303 are inter changeble. A less I lernt many years ago when I still actively huntered & shot, as the best Deer round then was listed as a 0.30 cal (fully jackected but hollow point) but gave better performance at standard loads than the offered soft or hollow point 0.303 rounds then on offer....

Aaagh! Trust me, they (.30/.303 projectiles) really are different diameters and they use the same size convention and they are intended for their their respective 'calibres', they are absolutely not recommended as interchangeable.

You may well be able to fire the oversize .303 projectile of 0.311" diameter through a .300 tube made for 0.308" projectiles (especially if the throat of the chamber is a little eroded/worn/ablated) but you will find you would need to be backing off on the the powder charge relative to 'standard' loads and barrel fouling will be heavy. But that is eating away at the safety margins. Firing .308" projectiles in a .303 rifle is no problem however and you might even duplicate standard pressures - by seating the projectile forward in the case until it engages the lands (not recommended, you get an action full of powder if you have to eject an unfired round). I would be surprised if the accuracy would be anything to write home about but "hunting accuracy" is not at all stringent by comparison with competition standards (especially benchrest, which you would not be doing with a .303 anyway).

Hunting is largely about the selection of the appropriate projectile for the rifle, for the nature of the hunting and for the game hunted. I can understand the attraction of the greater range of .308" projectiles. That doesn't make it correct (thinking accelerated throat erosion, for instance).

I admit I have no personal experience reloading any of the .30s or .303 but I used to supply equipment and materials to some who did. And I certainly did enough reloading with the smaller cartridges.

Major manufacturers (like Sierra) make both sizes and they do that for a reason. .311" is certainly harder to obtain than .308" these days - standard competitions for the .303 didn't allow reloading anyway (I dare say "fullbore" range use accounted for most of the rounds fired in .303).

If you were a member of NZ Deerstalkers you may have run into Graeme Smith. Graeme worked for me in Oz and took over my firearms dealership in Paraburdoo when I moved to the big smoke. He moved back to NZ a year or two after that.

Regards,

Steve Sheen

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Yeah yeah, give poor Kieffer some funny story to read so you can carry on with your ammo troubles...one sunny day I'll have my revenge for that!

best regards of course, Kieffer

Rectalgia wrote:

�
kieffer wrote:

...Oh oh were going of topic again I am afraid...

Indeed - this is far more on topic: http://www.thehistorybluff.com/?p=1614. Well, the whole topic is off-topic for the Tanks forum but ...
�

�

Rectalgia · Legend

kieffer wrote:

Yeah yeah, give poor Kieffer some funny story to read so you can carry on with your ammo troubles...one sunny day I'll have my revenge for that!

What, the stirring story of Bernard and Andre, the most decorated dogs in the history of the Belgian army, is not relevant? But I am glad they abandoned the idea of canine surgeons. Dogs can be most untrustworthy to have around raw meat, I think. The opportunities for catastrophe are too terrible to contemplate.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Steve,

they didn't do some tests with live ammo doggies, didn't they?

regards Kieffer

gemsco · Captain

The Brussels cart is the one to carry the ammunition. It is an original and�very well renovated. The Maxim machinegun is just near it, but not on it. I've taken a few pictures, but the space doesn't allow to take it fom the right distance. If they are good, I'll post them (provided I understand how to insert them.)
Regards
Gemsco

jagjetta · Brigadier

WOW! Great picture of the gas masks in use, Kiefer! Thank you for sharing it.
John

-- Edited by jagjetta on Friday 19th of March 2010 12:14:40 AM

Rectalgia · Legend

kieffer wrote:

Hi Steve,

they didn't do some tests with live ammo doggies, didn't they?...

Ah no, here we have to use our full analytical powers on that picture and employ our intensive knowledge of not only the paraphernalia of the military of many countries over many periods but also of their "cultures".

That tubular contraption is in fact a cement mixer, hand-built from stores aboard one of HM ships by an Artificer of the Royal Navy. The RN was not very good with cement mixers, once you grasp that, the rest falls into place. That is an RAF Flight-Lieutenant, probably WW2 (new buildings in the background), and in a rare display of English cruelty to cute and cuddly creatures, he is about to push that pup down into the mixer. That dog is about to be given a "concrete overcoat" as the American gangsters would say. Why is this being done? Alas here we need more information. Perhaps the mutt made a mess in the mess. Maybe (s)he chewed a chap's pipe.

We cannot know without convening a Royal Commission to investigate further - and I am sure some would say we should, though they cost many millions of pounds and the perpetrator has most likely answered to the ultimate authority already. But one day, at an abandoned airfield, some anonymous block of concrete may be split open to reveal the sad truth of our deductions. A pathetic petrified puppy will be entombed in its cold, stony heart. A metaphor for the whole desperate time when the world was at war once more. {sob}

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Gemsco,

sorry, I mixed things up: called it a replica which should be a renovated original. I am looking forward to the pictures! I will try to post some made in Delft, of the Dutch cart but there too photographing wasn't easy.
It's behind glass and there is hardly any space to take a good position.

regards, Kieffer

gemsco wrote:

The Brussels cart is the one to carry the ammunition. It is an original and�very well renovated. The Maxim machinegun is just near it, but not on it. I've taken a few pictures, but the space doesn't allow to take it fom the right distance. If they are good, I'll post them (provided I understand how to insert them.)
Regards
Gemsco

�

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Steve,

thanks for your thorough analysis!
But there are still a few questions left:
What was the RN doing with concrete mixers on their fleet,
Concrete overcoats were already out of fashion during WW1, concrete socks were common practise (there was a war going on)

The mixer, you knew it's a mortar didn't you, is an Albrecht Morser (can't find the Umlaut on the O) and has a CALIBRE too, three as a matter of fact (25,35 and 45cm)...
No idea how many charges the thing could fire before having a total "burnt out", as the thing was made of wood bound with wire and metal hoops.

regards, Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

kieffer wrote:

...The mixer, you knew it's a mortar didn't you, is an Albrecht Morser (can't find the Umlaut on the O) and has a CALIBRE too, three as a matter of fact (25,35 and 45cm)...
No idea how many charges the thing could fire before having a total "burnt out", as the thing was made of wood bound with wire and metal hoops. ...

No, I didn't know that was an Albrecht M�rser (I found no umlaut either but apparently the diaeresis is close enough for today's purposes - you can borrow mine). A wooden mortar! I thought that was somebody's fevered imagination. I don't know much. With correct swabbing practices and the right woods (and of course no 'supercharges') they would give good enough service. We tend to be condescending about wood these days but when people knew what they were doing with it (and there were enough trees around to give the proper selection) it was a material of great versatility. Military engineers even in my day were still trained to make bamboo bridges and those would take a landrover and laden trailer over 40-foot gaps as a matter of routine.

There was the trunk of a long-dead, fine-grained gum tree outside my house that blunted the saw-blade so many times when it was cut down that I lost count. You could build an engine-block out of that stuff.

But I would rather that Albrecht was a cement mixer, no matter how inefficient.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Steve,

there's one for sale..www.collectorssource.com.
May be it's not unwise to put this Albrecht matter on an other topic, as there are many more wooden contraptions, especially from the beginning of trench war fare with an overall shortage of appropriate grenade launchers?

regards Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

Chiens

Ironsides · Legend

RE: Belgian army dog cart

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Steve,

a nice piece of artwork! Bernard and Andre pulling their own kit, probably they nicked the wheels from a nearby bourgeois home, 'organizing' the movable tea table.

gemsco · Captain

All photos of Belgian dog carts show them with sort of bicycle wheels, no wooden wheel at all. This, of course doesn't preclude the use of wood for repairs or local makeshift cart.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Some pictures of a dog cart from the Dutch. They were the only one who took over the concept from the Belgians, as they were familiar with dogcarts too.
Sorry foor the poor quality, the museum is cramped, much behind glass etc.

Petelgv1 · Private

I take a collection of vintage dog carts to steam rally's with a few pics of working dogs. I have 1 pic of dogs pulling a gun cart which gets a lot of attention. Would anyone here please be able to email me some more pictures of dogs pulling the gun carts, especially like the pictures in this topic.
Many thanks, Pete.