Landships II

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

The Patriot Files

CharlieC · Legend

I think the issue is one of plagarism rather than copyright. Peter's disclaimer page says that it's his belief that the material on the Landships site is in the "public domain". If this is so then copyright cannot be asserted over the material.

Copying without attribution of sources (plagarism) is considered a sacking offence in academic circles but doesn't seem to be considered a foul thing in the general community.

I notice that the text is just "cut and pasted" from Landships - some of the copied texts still have the Landships formatting. The admin on Patriot Files doesn't seem to be the sharpest chisel in the bag so e-mailing him would probably just produce a "duh" response. If people do consider the behaviour of Patriot Files egregious then e-mailing the Patriot Files web hosting organisation may have more effect.

Regards,

Charlie

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

I'm sure you are right, Charlie. Although it's my belief that Peter wrote that disclaimer in the first few days of Landships1 and then never updated it. Photos on the early articles have no 'watermark' whereas on the later ones they are all attributed. On the whippet article photos, that David at Patriot Files has copied, there are attributions, that Peter placed,�to 3 or 4 different people (one of them is me). I feel that�Peter meant that disclaimer to include text and the old photos, but then realised that the new photos could not be included under that umbrella statement and so started to add the 'watermark'. (Peter also references his work!)

I'm not a copyright expert. Far from it. And I don't want to get 'precious' about information about WW1 etc information that is on this site. I want as many people as possible to get interested in WW1 (maybe then there would be more models for me to make!). But I think a reference or acknowledgement is good form. I also understand the futility of complaining about people that plagiarise in such a massive�way; they're in a different country (with guns) and so why should they be polite? There really is nothing that can be done, except hopefully give them a little pin prick of embarrassment (although I imagine they are quite used to comments such as this).

Rectalgia · Legend

Oddly enough patriotfiles.com seems to be down for me at the moment - "Problem in Database Connection" - and it's not just my connection - http://just-ping.com/index.php?vh=patriotfiles.com&c=don_ab_just-ping&s=ping!&vtt=1271871532&vhost=_&c=don_ab_just-ping indicates it's unreachable from just about anywhere on the planet - "Packets lost (100%)". I'm sure that's just a coincidence though.

The serious thing for Landships (to my mind) is if you Google or otherwise search for a purloined phrase from Landships and the search engine finds Patriotfiles (or someone else) before it finds us and there's no mention of the source. That's just not right.

I think making it clear that attribution is (as a minimum) requested will be a big help in future. That's attribution to Landships and/or attribution to the author (and that goes for anything moved from Landships1 too unless Peter objects). The author, or Landships on their behalf, is quite entitled to further stipulate that material should not copied without permission (I think) - "except for personal use" would be a standard rider. That's the author's right. I don't think it is proper to put it out in public otherwise - unless they have specifically waived that right.

dubliner · Sergeant

Phil,

Your right, this is a pretty blatant copy and paste job. When the A7V replica showed up at Tankfest, I wrote a post on it for my blog based on information videos on Youtube and DG posts about the vehicle. I didn't add anything new to the story, just brought together all the information available from various sources into a summary piece. Funny thing happened, one of the on-line modeling magazines picked up my text and published it as their own, word for word. I thought about making a fuss over it, but more information became available on Grundy's A7V and I ended up rewriting my original post to fill in the missing gaps and address the errors of the first draft. Its easy to brush off a single copy paste job, but what is happening with the Patriot Files is much more systematic and I think 'David' should be asked (kindly) to give credit to his source. He may not listen, but simply joining his forum and posting a reply documenting the source should be enough.

Regards,

Chris Ballance
filmpanzer blog

-- Edited by dubliner on Monday 26th of April 2010 03:12:29 AM

-- Edited by dubliner on Monday 26th of April 2010 03:13:23 AM

Mark Hansen · Legend

Don't know if anyone else is going to but I posted a reply asking for an attribution. Waiting now to be ignored or told off at the patriot files...

Rectalgia · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:
Don't know if anyone else is going to but I posted a reply asking for an attribution. ..

Let's know how you get on Mark. If you need support I will certainly chip in over there. Their mission is simply stated "The Patriot Files is a website designed to gather, store, and display military history." They should have no problem with attribution and no sources would have much of a problem with them if they comply with the usual etiquette.

As we have seen, all sources are vulnerable to the ravages of time, especially 'enthusiast' sites which rely on just one or a few people to keep them running but which accumulate great stores of contributions from other enthusiasts. It is in everyone's interests to ensure this hard work is conserved and "spreading it around" is one way. But nobody should be relaxed about the original contributors being ripped off (not even those doing the ripping-off).

It will help if the sources themselves clearly show appropriate authorship (and dates) within the text at the head and/or foot of the pages. 'Authorship' certainly includes compilations/re-compilations of existing material (with sources noted), with or without additional 'original' commentary or interpretation. There are (or there were) 'rules' about that, but that's Lawyer territory. It's the amount of work that goes into it that counts - if one can trust in 'equity'. Like Sir Isaac, we all of us see a little further (if we do) by "standing on the shoulders of Giants," building on the work and comprehension of those who were before us.

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Monday 26th of April 2010 07:06:11 AM

Mark Hansen · Legend

Rectalgia wrote:

�
Mark Hansen wrote:
Don't know if anyone else is going to but I posted a reply asking for an attribution. ..

Let's know how you get on Mark. If you need support I will certainly chip in over there. Their mission is simply stated "The Patriot Files is a website designed to gather, store, and display military history." They should have no problem with attribution and no sources would have much of a problem with them if they comply with the usual etiquette....

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Monday 26th of April 2010 07:06:11 AM

Well, I didn't have to wait long for a result...

�P.S.: A little extra information. The "spamming" consisted of asking the admins to give attribution to the thread I posted in and pointed out that it wasn't the only one. For this, a lifetime ban. Well, I suppose one shouldn't expect honour among thieves...

-- Edited by Mark Hansen on Monday 26th of April 2010 10:06:30 AM

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Well done, Mark. I think it shows that you certainly touched a nerve.�

I can see that one of the contributors to Patriot files is also a contributor here, and as far as I can tell, he has not been banned yet. So maybe he will also pass the message on, if he hasn't already done so.

I imagine that with the word 'patriot' in their title they will have a lot more readers than here at Landships. But that won't stop us all from following your example, Mark, and politely asking them to be polite. After all, 'Manners maketh man.'

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Monday 26th of April 2010 01:37:28 PM

CharlieC · Legend

There is, of course, a self help website to help deal with the creeps like the admin at Patriotfiles - www.plagiarismtoday.com. The idea is to use the provisions of the US DMCA against the offender then escalate it to the hosting company if they don't comply. There's some other DMCA stuff I haven't got a handle on yet which means that the hosting companies, if they receive a valid complaint, will monster the site owner.

If we go down that track then we need a list of all offending posts and post dates in the Patriotfiles forum - I can match these with the dates they were posted onto Landships because the file dates were preserved when I got a mirror of the Landships website.

Patriotfiles is hosted in the south of the US by CenturyTel Internet Holdings.

Regards,

Charlie

Ironsides · Legend

All the copied pages should be in the WW1 section of the forum the most recent is on the Jeffrey Armoured car only a few weeks ago but this is only cos theres been a reply.. a rare occurence, but it does mean pages may be scattered...�Im sure David the Dictator um pardon me... "administrator".. doesnt want to be made to look the fool... hence the ban I suspect that anyone else posting a similar�complaint will get the same response....

http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109714

heres the relevant forum section, as you can see this page alone is all Landships and Landships articles�run upto page 17 at least...�practically without a break,�there may be others but it looks like a good portion of the landships site, up untill now I thought it was only a few pages....
David seems to have passion for this sort of thing....

http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=102&order=desc&page=6

I looked at a number of posts, some names turn up because their in the articles but no attributes for landships or the original authors and�this is clearly plagarism...

My vote would be to set the dogs on him...

Cheers confuse

dubliner · Sergeant

As Mr. Burns would say

Release the hounds...

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

I have joined the patriot files forum and made a couple of replies to 2 different copied articles. Also sent a pm to David.

I certainly wasn't rude, but I suspect I was not as polite as Mark. I mentioned the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and named the offender; David, the administrator of files patriotic. I also said that if he states his source(s) on each and every article he has copied then we can all be friends again.

From Mark's post, I estimate about 5 hours before I see a reply, so perhaps the dogs can be leashed until then?

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Monday 26th of April 2010 05:25:51 PM

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

I received the following in an email from David Bailey, the site administrator:

"Phil I see you have restored the landship site. I copied the material as it looked like it was going to be lost. If you really want to get the site back up and running let me know, I can help. As far as the copied material is concerned, my site is not commercial in any way and is educational in nature and that is why I quote fair use. If you were to come to the site and simple state you would like to annotate the articles with credits that is much less confrontational and would be better received. If you intend to keep the site up then the material really is not necessary now. I can help you get the site up as I own my own servers and have close to 20 years of experience in such matters.

David"

Although his tone is helpful, I can't see how it explains that his posts are from the middle of last year, when there was nothing wrong with Landships. Or why he cannot himself put credits on his articles.

Oh, yeah. I am also banned for life for 'spamming'. Maybe we should make some t-shirts? "I was banned from Patriot Files before you were!"

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Monday 26th of April 2010 05:33:46 PM

Rectalgia · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

...Well, I didn't have to wait long for a result...
�P.S.: A little extra information. The "spamming" consisted of asking the admins to give attribution to the thread I posted in and pointed out that it wasn't the only one. For this, a lifetime ban. Well, I suppose one shouldn't expect honour among thieves...

Well, that was totally unexpected - their forum, their rules but treating a polite request to respect the source as "spamming" is quite unconscionable besides being utterly stupid. Seems they have yet to learn the days of trial by combat are long gone and that the opportunity for synergy far outweighed the bully-boy rejection. Guess we wait for response to PDA's approach then pull on the kicking boots if this particular leopard isn't about to change its spots.

[Edit] And that response is to hand already. The t-shirts sounds like a great idea too - should more of us go to qualify? Seems pointless (and verging on actual spamming).

Good to hear from David Bailey but a puzzling response, all things considered. Along with the timing and absence of attribution mentioned, how does it reconcile with banning?

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Monday 26th of April 2010 05:46:39 PM

Ironsides · Legend

"Good to hear from David Bailey but a puzzling response, all things considered. Along with the timing and absence of attribution mentioned, how does it reconcile with banning?"

Smoke screen�I think.... the dates are totally wrong and no one could have known that the landships site might go down in any case.... this was all copied long ago...

Cheers wink

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

David Bailey, webmaster of Patriot Files,�has asked for a list of all the articles that he has tacitly claimed as his own work. Apparently his memory is poor and he can't remember what he has stolen (definition of plagiarism). He says that if such a list is provided to him he will remove the articles, eventually. It seems he would rather remove them than give credit to someone other than himself.

The Americans' First Amendment includes a little bit about freedom of speech, doesn't it? So one wonders�why a self-proclaimed patriot is banning people for life for asking him to name his sources and/or give credit where credit is due? Isn't it a true patriot's duty to defend the constitution and its amendments?

Rectalgia · Legend

philthydirtyanimal wrote:
...The Americans' First Amendment includes a little bit about freedom of speech, doesn't it? So one wonders�why a self-proclaimed patriot is banning people for life for asking him to name his sources and/or give credit where credit is due? Isn't it a true patriot's duty to defend the constitution and its amendments?

James Boswell quotes Samuel Johnson as saying "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. " I happen not to believe that as a blanket pronouncement but certainly there are those who might proclaim themselves as patriots in the belief that any villainy could be forgiven.

But anyway, the soft approach would be better for all, if it is not mistaken for weakness. There's just a chance there's a "rush of blood to the head" involved and both sides might be a little overheated. I suggest sleep on it and resume a little later. Nobody asked them to take down the material but whatever they do they will need that list of pages. Forlorn hope perhaps, that rationality might follow a cooling-off, but best not to prejudge. Just a thought ...

Paul Bonnett · Hero

The following typed into a very popular search engine, netted some Very interesting results :- David Bailey, webmaster of the Patriot Files.
Paul

CharlieC · Legend

The magic button for Americans in the Web Industry was pushed - DMCA. This piece of legislation is so complicated that hardly anyone understands how it's supposed to work so just a mention of it seems to be enough to get a response.

Did you really expect an honest, straightforward reply from a gross plagiarist?

Regards,

Charlie

Rectalgia · Legend

CharlieC wrote:

...
Did you really expect an honest, straightforward reply from a gross plagiarist?

Yeah, I did actually - it's only plagiarism if you publicly claim it to be your own work (inference doesn't come into it) and I tried to show, with soft words and gentle demeanour, that sharing is good for all, requiring just the normal courtesies of attribution. The only downside being if the actual author/editor requests take-down or modification.

Reminds me of that other quote of Johnson on patriotism - ""A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest." Not too much of a stretch to apply that to the little microcosm that is military history, I think.

Well, the price of optimism is disappointment - I can live with that (plenty of practice)

Steve

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Whoever intends to send him the list of all the files he has stolen (that he says he must have before he will eventually remove the articles) will have to make a very long list. There are 18 pages of files, and from page 4 to page 17 it is almost entirely stolen Landships articles, with 20 files per page.

I can't send him the list because in the same email that he demanded�a list, he stated that further emails from me will be deleted. I wonder if Kafka was a patriot as well.

Also, I would like to point out that I never asked him to remove anything; only to credit the author(s) of the works. Clearly, he feels unable to do that.

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 01:42:48 AM

dubliner · Sergeant

Well Phil,

The good news is that we have another backup of Landships.

Maybe we can hit David up for donation (that is one of us that has yet to be banned and email blocked), after all he is interesting in preserving history.

Rectalgia - I am working hard to be an optimist.

I have to get busy now, Charlie sent me a homework assignment last night.

Regards,

Chris Ballance
filmpanzer blog.

-- Edited by dubliner on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 02:11:47 AM

-- Edited by dubliner on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 02:29:50 AM

Mark Hansen · Legend

philthydirtyanimal wrote:

...I can't send him the list because in the same email that he demanded�a list, he stated that further emails from me will be deleted. I wonder if Kafka was a patriot as well...

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 01:42:48 AM

�Nor can I, being banned also. Perhaps this is more like Catch-22 rather than Kafka. He can only remove the files if you email him but you aren't allowed to email him, making it impossible for him to know which files to remove. Email Milo Minderbinder instead. smile

Ironsides · Legend

This Guy seems to aspire to political office he seems quite willing to use the information and video links whilst at the same time banning the authors from the site of any possibility of communication with him... whilst you may say he has not signed the documents at the bottom or said specifically it is or is not his work, his�Forum identity�does appear at the top of each post and the fact that he has'nt included the heading which has the Authurs and landship logo is deliberatly misleading ... to my mind that means his name is on the work....

There is nothing worse then having your work used by others without so much as nod, if you've worked for a long time on a project in which you put your heart and soul where this has happened you'll know what�I mean...

Cheers confuse

CharlieC · Legend

Got a list of the forum items from the Patriot Files site that came from Landships.

Comes out to 255 items - basically he copied all the accessible pages.

Anyone got an e-mail address for David Bailey - who is going to get a surprise....

Regards,

Charlie

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

"David Bailey"� can be contacted on webmaster@patriotfiles.com.

Ironsides' comment has made me realise the magnitude of David Bailey's hypocrisy (or is it disingenuousness). He said he copied all the files because he knew the site would go under and he wanted to save it (a noble cause), but then he removes all references to authors, credits, and sources etc, not once mentioning Landships or Peter Kempf; instead taking active steps to remove all such references.

James H · Legend

Well, Mr. Bailey has lifted in their entirety my articles on the 5.7cm from Schnuck and�on Belgian uniforms. The latter is so�full of mistakes that he's welcome to it, actually.

What he's doing is definitely not cricket.�He seems to be the USA's answer to Ted Harris of diggerhistory.

However, might I suggest that whilst Mr. Bailey and his website reflect an American�state of mind�that many of us will recognise, we should not tar our valued American contributors to Landships with the same brush?

I'm a member now. What can I do to get up his nose?

I also find the esprit de corps exhibited here and in the matter of Landships II positively heartwarming.

-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 02:13:26 PM

CharlieC · Legend

James H wrote:

Well, Mr. Bailey has lifted in their entirety my articles on the 5.7cm from Schnuck and�on Belgian uniforms. The latter is so�full of mistakes that he's welcome to it, actually.

What he's doing is definitely not cricket.�He seems to be the USA's answer to Ted Harris of diggerhistory.

However, might I suggest that whilst Mr. Bailey and his website reflect an American�state of mind�that many of us will recognise, we should not tar our valued American contributors to Landships with the same brush?

I'm a member now. What can I do to get up his nose?

I also find the esprit de corps exhibited here and in the matter of Landships II positively heartwarming.

-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 02:13:26 PM

If you really want to get up his nose issue a takedown notice to Patriot Files for your articles. You should say in the takedown e-mail that you hold the copyright to these articles as their creator but granted Peter Kempf the right to publish on the Landships site.

The offending Patriot Files forum threads are titled (with start date):

Belgian uniforms�� 07-22-2009
The Gun of the A7V Schnuck�� 07-01-2009 03:21 PM

There's a template for a takedown notice at www.plagiarismtoday.com

Regards,

Charlie

�

CharlieC · Legend

24 hours since I e-mailed David Bailey the list of Landship articles he ripped off - guess what? - no reply.

I think the next level of escalation is to hit him with takedown e-mails from the article authors - see if he responds to that (see above for a template for the takedown e-mail).

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 29th of April 2010 12:23:30 AM

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

No changes at Patriot Files. David Bailey still has 255 files, with his name on them, that he stole from Landships.

I suggest we all get the list from Charlie and email David Bailey with it, requesting him to remove the articles.

He has been asked politely, many times, to state that he got the articles from Landships. Then, when he refused to do that,�he was asked politely to remove the articles.

I also think that, yes, we should all join and all of us request that he names the source for all the 255 articles.

I have just discovered that even though I am banned for life from his rip-off site, I can still send messages to the webmaster (David Bailey).

The patriot files articles appear in search results before the original entry on Landships. That's not right.

David Bailey�can be contacted on webmaster@patriotfiles.com.

James H · Legend

Ah. I'm banned now, and I haven't even done anything yet. That's a bit pre-emptive.

Mr. Bailey claims that his site is a partner of the Library of Congress. Perhaps they might be interested.

BTW, if you think patriotfiles.com is a bit neocon, you should see patriotfiles.org.

CharlieC · Legend

We really need authors to whack David with takedown notices. Once these have been ignored by David then we can escalate it to CenturyTel webhosting. Without the DMCA takedown notices then the hosting company will just ignore complaints about plagiarism.

Emails will still be delivered regardless of whether people are banned on a forum.

Regards,

Charlie

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

By 'takedown notice' do you mean a 'cease and desist letter' as it is described on plagiarism today here:

http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/stock-letters/

It looks appropriate.

CharlieC · Legend

That's the one - my mistake - they usually are called takedown notices.

Regards,

Charlie

Mark Hansen · Legend

CharlieC wrote:

We really need authors to whack David with takedown notices. Once these have been ignored by David then we can escalate it to CenturyTel webhosting. Without the DMCA takedown notices then the hosting company will just ignore complaints about plagiarism.

Emails will still be delivered regardless of whether people are banned on a forum.

Regards,

Charlie

I have a slightly different problem. The only article I had was a modelling conversion and hasn't appeared there (yet). Some of my photos are there along with the Landships page where I was given credit. Can I still ask for a takedown/cease-and-desist when my name does appear there?

CharlieC · Legend

I believe so - if you can demonstrate ownership of images then you can claim a copyright to those images. I think DMCA allows you to ask for takedown of the whole work even if your copyright only encompasses part of it.

Regards,

Charlie

dubliner · Sergeant

I been thinking a good deal about the Patriot Files. David is just digital hoarding. He is not preserving history, he is just hoarding historical text and photos. His world grows at the expense of others. The only way to preserve history is to build a community of people whose passion for the history(and the people in it) leads them to actually do things, like archeology or archival research, publishing, building models, making films, etc. It's a bit like the scene at the end of the film version of Fahrenheit 451 where the great literature of the world is protected because individuals go out of their way to memorize them line by line. I don't think we need to start memorizing line by line WW1 histories and veteran accounts, but building little online fortresses filled with looted texts and photos has to be one of the worst ways to go about the idea of preserving history.

Regards,

Chris Ballance

-- Edited by dubliner on Wednesday 5th of May 2010 03:29:40 PM

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hmmm ... I can see this David has been very busy. I just had a quick flick through the site, and basically what he has done is bulked it out with other peoples articles to make the site appear more important and used than it really is.

Look at any post by him and you will see maps from books, and articles from News portals ... oh and this site. None of it has any reference to original sources.

So I can see why he's scared, if he has to remove all his reference material he hasn't accredited ... 90% of the Patriot Files would disappear!

Looking at the amount of other peoples work he has accumulated, it could just be he isn't looking forward to all the work it would involve accrediting it all.

Keep at him!

Helen xx

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

MK1 Nut wrote:
...what he has done is bulked it out with other peoples articles to make the site appear more important and used than it really is.
�...None of it has any reference to original sources.
...if he has to remove all his reference material he hasn't accredited ... 90% of the Patriot Files would disappear!

...it could just be he isn't looking forward to all the work it would involve accrediting it all.

Keep at him!

Helen xx

I don't think it's the site he wants to look important; I think he is trying to make�himself look important. If he had posted the articles with credits on, his site would have looked just as good. Posting them with only his name on them, makes it appear that he is the oracle. And it doesn't take an Einstein to see that (which is just as well...).

Consequently, I don't think he is considering all the work involved in putting back on all the references he removed. I think he is only concerned with losing face in his community of good patriots, by admitting that he stole it all.

One possible tactic might be to embarrass him. But this would have to be both subtly done�so he doesn't realise it, but hammered home to the other good patriots so they see what a phony he is. Not sure if that is possible, but this thread that he posted (from which he has removed the name) may give a clue on how to do it:

http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109774

'rugbyremembers' asks him a question, and surprise surprise, he cannot answer.

Maybe if he got enough questions that he can't answer, the other�'patriots' would start to notice.

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Saturday 8th of May 2010 02:24:17 PM

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Saturday 8th of May 2010 02:35:42 PM