Landships II

Hughbearson · General

Taliban(?) Renault FT-17.

James H · Legend

The first pic isn't an FT - it's a Fiat 3000, based on the FT but entering service after the War.

The Taliban date from 1994, and I think the Afghan Renaults had been in mothballs long before that.

I believe only two were discovered. One of them IIRC was taken to Fort Knox for restoration, and I think there's an update with pics somewhere on the forum. Funnily enough, it crossed my mind a couple of weeks ago to try to contact the restorers to enquire whether they had come across any serial numbers or anything else that might help to identify the machines and indicate the route they might have taken to Afghanistan. Is anyone in touch with the restorers?

Rectalgia · Legend

One restored and sent to the General George Patton Museum according to Wikipedia. There's a photo of it (and other known 'survivors' shown in http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_FT-17.pdf (big file). The website http://www.4600n200e.com/4436/index.html mentions the two recovered Afghani tanks going to the Aberdeen Proving ground Museum - maybe they did the restoration? They would certainly have the expertise.

Wotan II · Corporal

Thats amazing... 90 year old tanks were discovered in the hands of radicals. Do they really think they can attch bombs to them and drive them at 2 MPH at a Challanger? Thats the only thing that could possibly work, and that's if the whole crew just took a nap. That or 37mm 1918 KE rounds vs. 4 inch depleted urainium ceramic. Is this a joke? Either way, it's an interesting story, much more so than Al and Tipper getting divorced. Maybe if those were terorist Renaults they were used as training for... I'm drawing a blank. 1918 war machines are pretty outdated, what exactly were they doing with them anyway?(that is, if they are Taliban)

James H · Legend

I am delighted to say that I have received a message from Mr. Charles Lemons, the Curator of the Patton Museum. He has a quite fascinating theory about the provenance of the Afghan Renaults. I have asked his permission to post it on the Forum - this is not, after all, patriotfiles - and, subject to his agreement, shall do so shortly. I am confident it will provide considerable food for thought.

Stand by.

James H · Legend

Mr. Lemons has very kindly replied in the affirmative. These are his thoughts on the matter:

An FT with a Berliot turret "was taken down to bare metal and we did not find any numbers which resembled the "serial number".� However, I think we can state that these did not belong to British forces because of a rather unique modification to the front hatches.� It is my belief that these two vehicles were part of the tank regiment delivered to the Polish Army by the French in 1919.� The Polish apparently modified the hatches/doors to make them more secure and less prone to being penetrated.� I think that these were some of the ones lost to the Soviet Forces during the war of independence for Poland.� By 1923, the Soviets were building their own tanks and these were part of a gift to the Afghan government in exchange for official recognition.� This is mostly theory, but it does work. Do you have any thoughts of where serial numbers could have been stamped on the vehicle (besides the Renault plate?)"

I'm stunned. Can anyone add anything?

Hughbearson · General

Fascinating.
�I heard the the town they where found in was called Tank! Co-incedence or deliberate? We shall never know...

James H · Legend

That's not quite right, Hugh. The Renaults were found in Kabul. Tank is a town a couple of hundred miles south-east of Kabul, in what is now Pakistan - Waziristan, to be precise. The confusion seems to have arisen because Tank was a forward position in the Third Afghan War (1919) and, IIRC, was briefly occupied by Afghan tribesmen. So Tank might have been captured, but no tanks were. The British certainly used aircraft, but there seems to be no mention of tanks in any accounts.

Apparently, there is a book entitled Walk Warily in Waziristan, the memoirs of Capt. Francis Stockdale, who served in the area during the 1919 War. AFAIK he doesn't refer to tanks.

PDA · Legend

This subject has been dealt with a few times on this forum and I believe the most recent contained links to the restorer's blog of the restoration.�

And just in case anyone is playing�Paranoia Buzzword�Bingo:�"Jihad!"

-- Edited by PDA on Tuesday 15th of June 2010 12:02:26 AM

James H · Legend

FTs used by Poland in Polish-Soviet War 1920:

From�WARGAMING WITH THE POLISH ARMYby Mark Hannamm on Angelfire:

Tanks were principally French Renault FT17`s of the French 505e Regiment / Polish 1st Tank Regiment (1 Pulk Czolgow Poliskich) 75 gun armed and 48 with MGs split into 2 battalions each of 2 companies. Camouflaged in the French three tone sand / red-brown / green with French style playing card markings, they saw extensive action.

And from freerepublic.com:

Only 8 tanks of the total number of 120 were permanently lost in combat, mainly because they could not be recovered from the battlefield.

Study of the pics on this Polish site might reveal the modification Mr. Lemons describes:

http://www.weu1918-1939.pl/pancerne/czolgi/ft17/dowodztwo_pancerne_czolgi_ft_17.html

-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 15th of June 2010 11:05:04 AM

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour,

I agree James and Mr Lemons about Renault FT found in Afghanistan : it was probably some of the Polish tanks.

If you look at the tracks (on the 2 tanks picked up by the American Army) you can see that :
�� - compensating idler wheels are french post-war models.
�� - driver sprockets are original war models.

The Renault FT given by French army in 1919 used original war compensating idler wheels and driver sprockets.

After the war, Polish industry bought some Renault spare parts�and also built some other like driver sprockets.

On Polish's tanks photos, you can see these differents models of compensating idler wheels and driver sprockets (even on 1940 photos).

Always on the 2 Renault (now in USA) the track shoes are from French models (with number on each track shoe).
Polish industry probably built track shoes for its Renault, and I don't know if it was with the same markings than on French Models.
�
Always about tracks of these Renault, the oval Renault markings plate was always (on left track) from one of these tanks. This plate was always only on the left side.

"Does anyone know if they were used by the Taliban at one point?"
"90 year old tanks were discovered in the hands of radicals"

Not in the hands, just in garbage dumps or like "pot de fleur" in front of old barracks.
In the sixties some of the old Afghans tanks was in a tank's museum display.

Je suis mort de rire pour les "d�lires talibanesques".
On a finalement l'information que l'on m�rite . . . . . . tout particulierement avec internet !

Michel

-- Edited by Tanker on Wednesday 16th of June 2010 09:49:16 AM

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

This photo seems to show one FT 17 been in a good condition in 1988.

I heard they were stored in Camp Warehouse some time. No one told that to me in 2005, when I was there!!! disbelief

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonsoir,

"In good condition " ! ! !

Without cupola, tail and probably motor . . . .� and the track is�under the sand, probably for a long time . . .
This tank was already a "pot de fleur" for the afghan Army.

Michel

James H · Legend

According to the site on surviving FTs (whose name I can't remember) the total number in Afghanistan was 4. The two found in the scrapyard went to the USA, the third (presumably also a display) went to Saumur and has been restored, and the remaining one is still in Afghanistan.

I've been scanning the last photo for clues, but haven't spotted anything.