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Post Info TOPIC: The van Deuren Mortar


Legend

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The van Deuren Mortar
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I'd heard of this device before, and have just read two highly contradictory accounts of its service and usefulness.

Both agree that it was invented by a Belgian officer. The more favourable version says that it was an excellent weapon and came to replace the various models of 58mm spigot in the French army. The other says that it was used only in the first few months of the War and replaced by better types.

It does appear to have been fairly primitive, with a fixed barrel - no elevation or depression, so the range could be adjusted only by altering the bottom of the pit to change the angle of the baseplate, which was in one piece along with the barrel.

Anyone know anything for certain?

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Commander in Chief

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The designer was general Pierre van Deuren. It must have been a rather accurate weapon.
It weighted 175 kg, but you could take it apart in pieces of approx 60 kg.
Rate of fire was 3 till 4 rounds per minute and the range was 600m firing the 18kg grenade. The 38kg grenade ranged a 350 meters. The weapon was nicknamed "Mortiers Valt Dood"(Mortars Drop Dead) after the abbreviation MVD. The use of it was rather unpopular because like every action with (hand)grenades out of trenches close to the enemy (and some were very close at the Yser front) it provoked counter reactions. (One of the last Belgian Yser vets alive told the story that after first 'joking' around with throwing dead rats, somebody had the splendid idea to throw a grenade, which provoked an artillery shelling that lasted hours).

regards, Kieffer

-- Edited by kieffer on Saturday 18th of September 2010 11:48:43 PM

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Legend

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Hi James heres a pic as you say it has no traverse? or elevation not that I can see anyway, range was probarbly adjusted by the amount of charge....
Kieffer I think you might mean inaccurate...
I cant say I heard or read about any wide spread use of this weapon by the French it may be being confused with the other 58mm mortars of which there is at least three... I believe the Pic is from Brussels
Just found another image of another versian? this has traverse...
Cheerssmile





-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 19th of September 2010 09:30:26 AM

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Commander in Chief

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Ironsides wrote:

Kieffer I think you might mean inaccurate...





-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 19th of September 2010 09:30:26 AM



Hi Ironsides...this I read too, even that it was a dangerous weapon. My source was a booklet, according to the editor his pictures and text are founded on the cooperation with Brussels. But only the Pope is infallible isn't he...wink

regards, Kieffer

 



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Legend

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The secound image above may be from the "passion compassion"

http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/plateforme.html

according to that site 400 were ordered by the french army although its a 70mm it seems that 58mm bombs were used....

Cheerssmile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 19th of September 2010 01:25:00 PM

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Major

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Hello,

The "Van Deuren" was a good weapon, the french adpopted the 70 mm modèle 1915 "Van Deuren" studied by Major Van Deuren of belgian Army and 600 were made for french Army in the Westhinghouse Works in Le Havre in France.French hoped the "VD" (french name for Van Deuren mortar in official books) will replace the "mortier de 58 n° 1 bis".
In service, two defects occured:
-the tube was hot very swiftly.
-the electric ignition device was not durable in the trenchs.
The "VD" was accurate and the 19 kg bomb was good to 600 m (the belgian books claim 720 m for maximum range but french Army books said 600 m only).
In 1918, french Army withdraw the "VD" from front use and the weapons were passed to french Navy for use on ships as anti-submarine weapon with special bombs.
In belgian Army, "big" Van Deuren mortars were also used, notably a 90 mm modèle 1916 (heavy mortar, fired 120 kg bomb to 1400 m).
In few days, my new book "Les canons de la Victoire-Tome 3-L'artillerie de côte et l'artillerie de tranchée" is published with photographs of all french trench guns and the "light" and "heavy" Van Deuren mortars built in France.
Sorry for my poor english writing!
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.


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Legend

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Thanks, Guy. I look forward to that. It seems the van Deuren (which had the catchy nickname VD) did traverse, but, to paraphrase another well-known figure of the time, you could have any elevation you liked as long as it was 45 degrees.

The likelier explanation is that it is post 1915, since no one had any trench mortars to speak of before that. There's a drawing of it in L&F Funcken Volume 2, but, rather oddly, it's on the same page as the Belgian cavalry khaki uniform. It's also completely out of scale, making it look like a 240mm.

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Commander in Chief

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Bonjour Guy!

Aha, an accurate weapon again!
A small side line about Van Deuren's rank: I don't know his rank when he invented the weapon, but if I am right he lectured at the Krijgsschool (War academy or military school)
where he had the rank as major-general. But I also read that he was a captain, but that could be of course at the beginning of his carreer. He died in 1956.
Regards, Kieffer

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Major

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Hello,

The big official book "Cours d'Artillerie de Tranchée" edited by "Centre d'Instruction de l'Artillerie de Tranchée" de Bourges (1916, 1917, 1918 editions) said:
-the "V.D" mortar was studied by "Commandant" Van Deuren of belgian Army (similar rank of "Major" in belgian Army).
-the mortar is accurate, taking in consideration the kind of the bombs with vanes.
The most accurate of the french trench mortars was the 75 mm modèle 1917 Jouhandeau-Deslandres with a rifled barrel and fired to 1030 m.It was in competition with Stokes mortar also adopted by french Army.In 1918, the numbers of "Jouhandeau-Deslandres" and "Stokes" mortars in use in front-lines troops were nearly equal in french Army.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

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