I've been walking around converting the Landships FT-17 article - but I'm finally getting to it. There is a section on camouflage and markings in the original article.
In view of how the camouflage of the earlier St Chamond and Schneider is now viewed - came out of the factory "horizon blue" and various camouflage schemes were applied before going into action. What is the modern thinking on the FT-17 camouflage?
Just to confirm - the coloured playing card markings are definitely post-war. The card markings were black and white during the war?
Regards,
Charlie
-- Edited by CharlieC on Sunday 12th of December 2010 01:18:19 PM
-- Edited by CharlieC on Sunday 12th of December 2010 01:18:39 PM
Please Gentlemen, the french Renault light Tank is only the "FT" model. ALL french Army manuals and official books of the years 1916 to 1945 call this Tank "FT" and never "FT-17". I know that, to-day, all the people call Renault Tank "FT-17", even in France, but "we" are some to call the Renault Tank only as "Renault FT", the only good name fot this Tank. Yours sincerely, Guy François.
Renault FT from Bovington is the number 66016. It's really its tank's number. It is one of the training tank in mild steel. This tank is probably arrived in England with this kind of color (french "gris artillerie").
If with Schneider and St Chamond, tank's teams had enough time "to play" with camouflage system of their tanks, after May 1918, when Renault FT arrived by hundreds of tanks their were used with standard factory camouflage. Done by several factories it was always the same three or four colors.
Ace in color (on Renault FT) was only after the war and during 2nd WW.
About playing card system, here is an ordrer from Géréral Estienne - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Grand Quartier Général des Armées du Nord et du Nord-Est /GQGArtillerie d'Assaut n° 6841 du 29 Juin 1918
Ordre Général n° 63 Insignes du personnel et marques distinctives du matériel.
A) - Insignes du personnel : . . . . / . . . . . B) - Chars de combat : Outre son numéro d'immatriculation, tout char de combat porte deux marques dont l'une permet de distinguer dans le Groupement ou Bataillon, le Groupe ou ou la Compagnie du char et dans le Groupe ou dans la Compagnie, la batterie ou la section du char. La marque de Groupe ou Compagnie est constituée par un cartouche défini ci-dessous : 1° Groupe ou 1° Compagnie - cercle de 25 cm de diamètre. 2° Groupe ou 2° Compagnie - carré de 25 cm de diamètre. 3° Groupe ou 3° Compagnie - triangle de 25 cm de diamètre. 4° Groupe ou 4° Compagnie - losange de 25 cm de diamètre.
Les cartouches sont peints en blanc sur chaque flanc du char dans la moitié de la partie supérieure arrière du panneau.
La marque de Batterie ou Section est constituée par un As inscriptible dans un cercle de 15 cm, peint en noir au centre du cartouche d'après la régle ci-dessous :
1° Batterie ou Section - As de pique 2° Batterie ou Section - As de coeur 3° Batterie ou Section - As de carreau Echelon - As de trèffle
C) - Véhicules autres que les voitures de tourisme ou chars de combat : Tout véhicule porte en lettres et chiffres blancs de 12 cm de haut, sur chaque flanc, dans la moitié inférieure du panneau avant : 1° - L'indication AS 2° - Au dessous, le numéro de l'unité. Exemples : Camionnettes de l'Etats-Majors de la 1° Brigade - I AS - Camion de l'Etats-Majors du 502° RAS - AS 502 - Camion de l'Etats-Majors du 8° Bataillon - AS 8 B - Camion de l'Etats-Majors du 12° Groupe AS - 12 G - signé : Général Estienne - - - - - - - - - - - - - Renault FT Tank's numbers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - note n° 410836 1/SA Ministère de l'Armement et des Fabrications de Guerre/Direction du Service Automobiles/Matériel du 1° Octobre 1917).
J'ai l'honneur de vois faire connaître que les chars d'assaut Renault légers qui seront envoyés aux Armées seront immatriculés par mes soins dans la série 66001 à 75000.
Chars Renault n° en 66xxx - 67xxx - 68xxx Chars Schneider/Somua n° en 69xxx Chars Delaunay-Belleville n° en 70xxx Chars Berliet n° en 73xxx
La numérotation spécifique des constructeurs se retrouvant, normalement, aussi dans la numérotation du char. Le char n° 0001 de chez Renault étant le n° 66001 et le n° 2000 le numéro 68000
Chars Renault n° 0001 à 2000. Chars Schneider/Somua n° 3001 à 3601 Chars Delaunay-Belleville n° 4001 à 4281 Chars Berliet n° 2001 à 2801
Référence : SHD Vincennes - Carton 16 N 2130
On Renault FT, a other number is, sometimes, paint on chassis (under the turret). It's the factory chassis' number (different from tank's number on tracks)
Bonne soirée de lecture - Michel
-- Edited by Tanker on Monday 13th of December 2010 09:44:26 AM
Thanks for the advice on the FT colours and markings.
From the replies it seems as though the FT was factory painted in 3 or 4 colour camouflage colours. I'm guessing the colours were:
Grey-blue (gris artillerie) Olive green Brown Pale Ochre
The boundaries between the camouflage colours may be emphasised with dark (black?) lines although this wasn't universal.
I don't know the official colour descriptions - anyone help? I gather there wasn't a base colour like the St Chamond/Schneider tanks. What colours were the underside and the back of the suspension painted? One of the camouflage colours? Or was there a standard colour used?
The orders on the markings are quite clear - no coloured symbols on WW1 FTs. I'll quote the orders (in English translation) in the Landships FT article - that should silence any critics.
Thanks for the serial number scheme - that's useful information I'll include in the article.
Regards,
Charlie
-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 13th of December 2010 01:28:33 AM
Of course "As de Trèfle" is "Ace of Clubs" and "section" is "platoon".
Schneider and St Chamond units were organised in : Groupement (3 or 4 Groups) - Groupe - Batterie - Section.
Renault FT units were organised in : Régiment - Bataillon - Compagnie - Section
Général Estienne order n° 63 speak about "Batterie" and "Section" for Aces : "Batterie" was for Schneider and St Chamond Groups, "Section" for Renault FT units.
In this order, Général Estienne probably thought to used, also for Schneider and St Chamond Groups, the same marking's system than Renault FT units (with circle, square, triangle and diamond for the aces).
If aces are used by Schneider and St Chamond it was only without the white circle, square, triangle and diamond.
A 4 tanks Schneider or St Chamond Battery was composed of two platoons but there is no special markings to make difference between this two platoons. Inside St Chamond units, when markings are painted, it was the number up on the ace (I - II - III - IV) which gave the place of the tank in the Battery. First platoon of the St Chamond Battery was number I and II, and Second platoon was number III and IV. Of course, their is some exceptions. It's possible to found also (V - VI - VII - VIII) for second battery tank . . . .
It is, sometimes, the same things in Schneider units, but it's not a general rule . . . . The only problem for Schneider or St Chamond units is that you ought to study group's markings photo by photo to found the rule which can be different from 1917 to 1918 . . .
There is some Schneider and St Chamond photos with a with circle on chassis but it's not possible to say if it was to used the same marking system than Renault FT units.
In 1917, for Schneider and St Chamond groups, ace of clubs was the fourth battery. Groups used 16 tanks (4 batteries of 4). In November 1917 these groups lost the 4th battery who became the "Echelon" units (with some spare tanks and recovery teams ans equipments). Groups used 12 tanks (3 batteries of 4) and 3 spare tanks in the "Echelon"
Ace of clubs was used by these spare tanks.
It was the same things in Renault units Coy. Ace of clubs was the " Section d'échelon" of the Coy.
About camouflage, there is so many differents that I am not able to give an "universal law". One of the problems is that a lot a Renault FT photos are post war photos and second world war photos. It's often very difficult to be sure to distinguish them.
That is sure : All photos with a painted grenade near the tank number was post I WW and II WW Renault FT photos.
My only good answer is to study many photos to choice your model's camouflage . . . I don't built models . . . . ! Michel
-- Edited by Tanker on Monday 13th of December 2010 12:06:21 PM
Please Gentlemen, the french Renault light Tank is only the "FT" model. ALL french Army manuals and official books of the years 1916 to 1945 call this Tank "FT" and never "FT-17". I know that, to-day, all the people call Renault Tank "FT-17", even in France, but "we" are some to call the Renault Tank only as "Renault FT", the only good name fot this Tank. Yours sincerely, Guy François.
The references on Landships II to the "FT-17" have been replaced with "FT". As well as the original post the authoritative website char-francais.net also refers to the "Renault FT". Henceforth the tank formerly known as "FT-17" will be known as "FT".
Right! From now on it's only FT, nice to know and thank you Guy! By the way, didn't the Americans take over the same card ensignia, I even remember a Laurel and Hardy movie with an FT in it, having the ace of clubs. I think the movie was Pack up your troubles, the tank according to my latest information lend from the 160th regiment, apparantly an US built 6tonner.
regards, Kieffer
-- Edited by kieffer on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 08:35:46 AM
-- Edited by kieffer on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 10:06:17 AM
-- Edited by kieffer on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 10:09:05 AM
Thank you very much! I am sure that my editor and well known specialist of the french Army vehicles, François Vauvillier, will be happy! He is the "pioneer" of the "true" name of the french armament in the french review "GBM". Yours sincerely, Guy François.
Thank you Charlie. Général François will be happy . . . . !
For the American Renault FT, aces were on the door's turret and, sometimes, on right and left sides of the turret. It's a good recognition detail. On a lot of photos with american soldiers the Renault FT tanks are french tanks under american opcom.
Please Gentlemen, the french Renault light Tank is only the "FT" model. ALL french Army manuals and official books of the years 1916 to 1945 call this Tank "FT" and never "FT-17". I know that, to-day, all the people call Renault Tank "FT-17", even in France, but "we" are some to call the Renault Tank only as "Renault FT", the only good name fot this Tank. Yours sincerely, Guy François.
And, in a similar vein, The Schneider tank is just "CA", not "CA1".
Schneider CA 1 is the good one designation. CA was the Schneider factory's program name. The artillery's tractors, on the same chassis was Schneider CD and CD 3.
The Schneider CA 1 was first in model M1, modified in model M2. The Schneider CA 2 (Command tank) et CA 3 (to replace CA1) were not built.
My understanding is that they designed and built the CA, calling it CA (and the tractors etc were CD). Then, when they planned further tanks they had to designate it CA1 to differentiate between it and the new planned tanks (but this was after it had been built). But then, as you say, the planned CA2 and CA3 never got built. So as there was never a CA2 or CA3, calling it CA1 is unnecessary.
Strangely, this logic doesn't apply to the British Gun Carrier Mark I, which was designed and built with that name. But then again, there were several "gun carrier" projects kicking around at that time.
One exemple of CA 2 prototyp was tested in Champlieu. This tank was send in Marly le Roi (Fort du trou d'Enfer) to be used like training tank. Chassis was same as CA1. This CA 2 was tested in Champlieu in May 1917. In Mars 1917 the first Renault FT was tested in Champlieu. After CA 2 test, general Estienne decided to used Renault FT as command tank for Schneider and St Chamond units.
About hundred tracks and chassis were built for CA 3 and finally used for Schneider CD artillery's tractors.
The CA 3 (and CA 4 also well-planned) was not enough power-operated. It was same motor than CA 1 for 4 tons more. This tank was refused by General Estienne for this reason.
The original Schneider's diagrams are written "Schneider CA - S 990". CA 1, for the original 400 Schneider, was used when Schneider CA 2, CA3/4 were begun. When projet CA2/CA3 begun the Schneider CA1 program was not yet finished.
About Schneider's tanks : SHD Vincennes - Box 16N2131.
