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Post Info TOPIC: Gary's excavations on WW1 Skra di Legen battlefields


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Gary's excavations on WW1 Skra di Legen battlefields
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Well, i start to show you some good items that i have find on Skra the last 2 weeks


Image1 (well here i have a M16 German Helmet of German positions on Skra di Legen)
46477_152391438111845_100000229701556_420395_6913067_n.jpg

Image2 (Here some Bulgarian bullets of Styer Mannlicher 8mm and 5 on their clip m/95 Styer Mannlicher, and some French Lebel 8mm Bullets that used by Greeks and French army on Skra war, the relic on the right it is a pincir of German Stick Grenade)
156894_179940615356927_100000229701556_604060_6546701_n.jpg


Image3 (A German-Bulgarian ammo box)
63655_176516062366049_100000229701556_577317_3084839_n.jpg



Image4 (A French Figure 28 shell bomb 155mm)
46618_152659621418360_100000229701556_422396_3258079_n.jpg



Image5 (A German stick grenade that used by the Boulgarian troopers)
36246_179940485356940_100000229701556_604057_1412464_n.jpg



Image6 (Many many French Lebel 8mm bulets with some relics of their ammo box)
162670_181166061901049_100000229701556_616471_8366242_n.jpg


Image7 (Bones from the foot of a Bulgarian soldier)
40608_146804228670566_100000229701556_387257_3813109_n.jpg



Image8 (A German hand grenade Kugel 1913)
165569_185334381484217_100000229701556_650060_6374309_n.jpg



Image9 (4 French hand grenades F1 mod. 1915)
165133_185334284817560_100000229701556_650058_576328_n.jpg

-- Edited by Gary on Saturday 15th of January 2011 03:02:45 PM

-- Edited by Gary on Saturday 15th of January 2011 03:03:41 PM

-- Edited by Gary on Saturday 15th of January 2011 03:05:09 PM

-- Edited by Gary on Saturday 15th of January 2011 03:06:19 PM

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General

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Thanks for the photos. Those are some very interesting pictures. It is incredible how all this has survived since the Great War.

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John Kelley


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because the battlefields be on virgin places :)

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Major

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Er...aren´t the explosives a bit unstable after all this time?? And aren´t human remains supposed to be reported?

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Image 7 ? How do you know these bones are a Bulgarian

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Sorry my friend, but digging up explosives is a highly irresponsible thing to do.
And digging up human remains: that's up to the official authorities. People died there, and many are still missing. Human remains are not souvenirs.


regards, Kieffer

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kieffer wrote:

Sorry my friend, but digging up explosives is a highly irresponsible thing to do.
And digging up human remains: that's up to the official authorities. People died there, and many are still missing. Human remains are not souvenirs.


regards, Kieffer



Thanks Kieffer...I didn´t want to put it like that but that exactly my sentiments as well. That´s someones relative there and as far as I know it is an offence virtually everywhere to remove human remains and or explosives.

 



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Paul Bonnett wrote:

Image 7 ? How do you know these bones are a Bulgarian




because the Bulgarian soldiers take burried inside the trenches after the Greek victory, and the dead French and Greek soldiers where buried on cemetery out of Skra Village, i have found many more bones of dead Bulgarian soldiers with their dog tags



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General

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What exactly do you do with the bones? Do you leave them there, or report them?

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Hughbearson wrote:

What exactly do you do with the bones? Do you leave them there, or report them?




no my friend, i bury the bones in some place next to the trench, and i put a wooden cross, i whriting on the cross: "here there is an unknown soldier of Skra battle 1917-18"



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Corporal

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New excavations yesterday:


A safety cap from German Stielhandgranate M1917 179011_187930994557889_100000229701556_666648_7694586_n.jpg


Safety (2) inside
167248_187931044557884_100000229701556_666649_3456661_n.jpg



2 French Rifle grenades VB 1915166411_187931117891210_100000229701556_666650_3353391_n.jpg


A French F1 1915 Hand Grenade
164809_187931171224538_100000229701556_666652_437936_n.jpg


167265_187931227891199_100000229701556_666653_894270_n.jpg

Second F1 Grenade
167018_187931304557858_100000229701556_666654_8158773_n.jpg

Many many Bulgarian bullets and clips Steyr Mannlicher
167569_187931371224518_100000229701556_666655_4324960_n.jpg

One of the two French rifle grenades VB 1915
168465_187931417891180_100000229701556_666656_298569_n.jpg

My baby's
163819_187930937891228_100000229701556_666646_3161862_n.jpg

-- Edited by Gary on Tuesday 25th of January 2011 03:21:54 PM

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Commander in Chief

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To be honest: I think you are crazy man.

Sorry to say!

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elbavaro wrote:

To be honest: I think you are crazy man.

Sorry to say!






why am i crazy? why you say that?confuse it is just a hobby that i love it, Excavation on battlefields is a global hobby, go search on youtube "excavation on battlefields" and you see, i dont see anything crazy..

 



-- Edited by Gary on Tuesday 25th of January 2011 08:34:26 PM

-- Edited by Gary on Tuesday 25th of January 2011 09:07:13 PM

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Legend

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Well, I am deeply worried. It's a pity the government can't excavate and preserve the place in some way and create some sort of memorial. Although I don't suppose the funds are available in Greece at the moment.

But all that ordnance! The rule is - don't touch anything. People still get killed in France and Belgium. On top of which, archaeologists use a soft paintbrush, not a bloody mattock. I fear for your continued existence, Gary. Really.



-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 25th of January 2011 08:39:14 PM

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James H wrote:

Well, I am deeply worried. It's a pity the government can't excavate and preserve the place in some way and create some sort of memorial. Although I don't suppose the funds are available in Greece at the moment.

But all that ordnance! The rule is - don't touch anything. People still get killed in France and Belgium. On top of which, archaeologists use a soft paintbrush, not a bloody mattock. I fear for your continued existence, Gary. Really.



-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 25th of January 2011 08:39:14 PM




Dear friend James, the govement has build memory statues inside the Skra Village as you can see my video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W92IFAhDX4c

however, i have make memory statues on the battlefields and on the trenches, now for that you say about the dengerus relics, i know everything about millitary and special shell and exploding items, like grenades shells fragremments and others, as about the denger they have yees, we have lost villagers from exploting shells because the places have so so much unexploding shells on the forest, even and the roads, the war on skra grounds and mountais was big, 3 years exacly, but i have the experience, thank you for your interestsmilesmilesmile



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Commander in Chief

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It's always the same two stories: "I know everything about grenades and bombs, and about how dangerous they are but I have all the expertise so don't worry".
Well, it's your life you put at stake and one can only hope you don't hurt or kill somebody in the vicinity when things go wrong.
And that other story, "I dig up human remains out of respect for those who died etc":
Imagine your grand father is missing somewhere in Flanders or France. And some enthousiast with his metal detector and pick axe is shoveling around, and is showing pictures like "this is a foot of a French soldier and I also found a lot of dog tags, and I buried the bones near the trench with a cross on top", that is simply not decent.
I am sorry to put it like this and you might feel offended, but that's my opinion on the matter.


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I agree with James an kieffer.

for me: end of discussion.

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Corporal

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it's different that i say from that you have all understand, it is not bad to excavating on battlefields and find items from heroic battles, and skeletos that belong on soldiers that their fammilys never see them again, i have a grandfather HERO he was fight on Greek-Italian war ww2, and kill many enemies, come back with medals, and he died too old 84 years old arround his fammily, my hobby has not causal with any abusive against the faces that died on those battlefields, btw, we have departed from the post

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as you kieffer, i was mine-sweeper on Greek Army

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Major

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Forget the moral question for a moment ( Although, I too think poking around in what essentially what amounts to wargraves as immoral) and I ask, Is it legal though...?



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Pat


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It is good to have our attention turned towards Skra di Legen, a battlefield too often overlooked.

Now what to make of your activities.

My great-grandfather has been missing in action since 1916. That had an impact on my own life.

Do I want him to be found and to have a known grave? Heck yes! However I would imagine that to be accomplished by the authorities and scientists, such as here:
http://www.nps.gov/history/mwac/libi/excavations.html or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fromelles_%28Pheasant_Wood%29_Military_Cemetery.

I would feel better thinking of you joining the professionals and placing your talents at their disposal in order to get things done in a decent way. It would also make work safer for you. Regards, Pat


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Hero

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Skra di Legen covers a large area and to think of people walking about in the area with no knowledge of what they may be treading on is a frightening prospect. So for Gary to be carrying out his excavations and removing these potentially lethal items can only be seen as a good thing.
The nature of the ground, as shown in his video, lends itself to the use of a mattock but it also shows other tools such as scraper and paintbrush being used. How many of those who fell in France and Flanders were initially found buy the ploughs of local farmers etc. As long as he puts his military training to good use I think we should give him some support and encourage him to continue until the Hellenic Culture Organization takes on this monumental task.
Just my thoughts on the matter
Paul

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I for one agree with Paul.

But I do hope also that the locations of the finds are properly documented on drawings of the trenches especially the human remains.

Could Gary give us more information about the digs such as, is he part of a group or is he working solo.?

What will happen to the finds, will they be kept together in a museum or sold peice-meal?

Is there a local Military Museum?



-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Thursday 27th of January 2011 02:38:08 PM

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Paul Bonnett wrote:

The nature of the ground, as shown in his video, lends itself to the use of a mattock but it also shows other tools such as scraper and paintbrush being used. How many of those who fell in France and Flanders were initially found buy the ploughs of local farmers etc.

The difference is, Paul, that these farmers are working their fields and not digging for war relics. Many accidents happened, people mutilated or even worse, killed. Believe me, and I don't like to put personal things into the discussion but I knew and have seen these people were I grew up, and I can tell you that makes you see these digging activities rather sceptical, to put it mildly.

As long as he puts his military training to good use I think we should give him some support and encourage

Many members here have a military past, some are even on active duty. That doesn't make one automatically an expert. I can assure that the real experts like the Dutch EOD and their Belgian collegues from DOVO certainly do not encourage these digging activities. When things really come to the matter and a shed or an attic of some hobbydigger has to be cleared of live explosives, the EOD and/or DOVO people can risk their lives.

Well, I've said enough. I am out of the discussion.

Kieffer



 



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Major

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Military training is one thing...not always a guarantee though...look at all the bombdisposal "experts" who have died in Afghanistan for instance..and they weren´t hacking about with a mattock but using very sophisticated equipment and backedup with a team.
I would very much like to know wether such activities are legal...

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thank you all about your words and concern, well paul im careful as i can :)

LincolnTanker i will doing this, soon. Now about what be happening with my finds, i put them on a warehouse until than make my library/museum, and Skra village mayor honour me for my elbow-grease

-- Edited by Gary on Thursday 27th of January 2011 07:03:51 PM

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Legend

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Paul H wrote:

Military training is one thing...not always a guarantee though...look at all the bombdisposal "experts" who have died in Afghanistan for instance..


Contemporary improvised explosive devices (often with intact command detonation provision) and the site of an old conventional battlefield are two very different things, trust me. Mind you, I'm happy not to be involved in either. Those "special" shells Gary mentioned would, I imagine (since there were fortifications to be taken), include TNP/picric acid which can be very tricky if the shell casing is compromised over a long period.

It is, indeed, a risky thing to be doing but the area has to be made safe sometime - if the local authorities are appropriately involved then perhaps the best we can do is keep our fingers crossed on Gary's behalf. Or light a candle or two to St. Barbara.

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Major

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Gary wrote:

thank you all about your words and concern, well paul im careful as i can :)

LincolnTanker i will doing this, soon. Now about what be happening with my finds, i put them on a warehouse until than make my library/museum, and Skra village mayor honour me for my elbow-grease

-- Edited by Gary on Thursday 27th of January 2011 07:03:51 PM



To be honest  anyone who knowingly digs around in areas where there are explosives should know the risks and if anything happens then that is their choice to do so. (I do not mean people who do this as a job or career)
If it´s legal and above board then all I can say is, Gary..take care..it would be silly to get maimed or killed for a hobby, no matter how much praise and honour those who do not do it heap on you.

 



-- Edited by Paul H on Friday 28th of January 2011 08:33:19 PM

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Paul H wrote:

 

Gary wrote:

thank you all about your words and concern, well paul im careful as i can :)

LincolnTanker i will doing this, soon. Now about what be happening with my finds, i put them on a warehouse until than make my library/museum, and Skra village mayor honour me for my elbow-grease

-- Edited by Gary on Thursday 27th of January 2011 07:03:51 PM



To be honest  anyone who knowingly digs around in areas where there are explosives should know the risks and if anything happens then that is their choice to do so. (I do not mean people who do this as a job or career)
If it´s legal and above board then all I can say is, Gary..take care..it would be silly to get maimed or killed for a hobby, no matter how much praise and honour those who do not do it heap on you.

 



-- Edited by Paul H on Friday 28th of January 2011 08:33:19 PM

 




thank you i know, well i must say something about the danger on this hobby, it's most danger well you cleaning one grenade, than you get her from the ground, but all of the grenades that i have find, are deactivate, and only one is activate, the dangerus items on Skra are the shells, bombs you know, but i dont take them, i dont care about anything like that, have many many shells on skra. As i say i dont found and care about exposing items, except deactivate grenades, i only excavating for bayonets helmets guns and personal items from soldiers, and i know what be under the ground, because my metal dedector have great Metal Dichotomic on his system



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Hero

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It might behoove you chaps to go a bit easier on Gary and his hobby;  Balkan peoples are historically a tough lot.
  I should think you would want to avoid appearing as a timid bunch of cross-knee sitting, umbrella carrying  sissies

To you Gary,  I would suggest gathering as many collectibles as possible while still in possession of all your limbs & vision.

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Think i would agree, the points about war graves etc have been well and truely made, and these things do differ in other countries. Gary sounds like he is well aware of the dangers, after all he says local villagers have been injured in the past, so he knows the risk. I wouldn't do it but then my local area doesnt have the problem of burried munitions laying abouit. It's clearly a problem there and if nobody else will clear it then i wish Gary all the best and trust he stays safe. Hopefully some of these items can be made safe and then displayed in a local museum, that would be a fitting outcome of his endeavors. In the meantime Gary if you foind anything intereting post the pics, it will be intersting to see waht you find, but maybe leave the bones alone smile

Ian.

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Major

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28juni14 wrote:

It might behoove you chaps to go a bit easier on Gary and his hobby;  Balkan peoples are historically a tough lot.
I should think you would want to avoid appearing as a timid bunch of cross-knee sitting, umbrella carrying  sissies

To you Gary,  I would suggest gathering as many collectibles as possible while still in possession of all your limbs & vision.



No umbrella and the amount of explosives I have dealt with..no sissy sitting cross legged or standing either. I was ;
1 concerned with the legality
2 concerned about gary´s and others health

 



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Hero

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I intended no disrespect for your sentiments;  a mere attempt at humor to defuse the inflammatory suggestion of mental instability that strangely drew no rebuke.

-- Edited by 28juni14 on Wednesday 2nd of February 2011 02:03:19 PM

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Commander in Chief

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It wasn't my intention neither to give Gary a rough time. I might have been too harsh and may be I triggered this discussion by posting my statement, therefore I do apologise.
But, bottom line is: one shouldn't dig up explosives. Last victim on the list is a 27year young man, killed just a few days ago, in The Netherlands. Busy with defusing a ww2 projectile in his uncles garage.  Apparantly a collector, and I heard that he was a professional soldier...(I am not making that up, just google 'Hedel, bom, dodelijk ongeval', it's all in Dutch but the pictures are already clear enough).
Now, Gary states later on that he's merely interested in non explosive items and not after bombs etc. We're a bit mislead then I guess, after seeing pictures with quite a few hand grenades and an artillery shell.
I do not want to hold a sermon again and I am not mr. Morality either. If Gary wants to enjoy his hobby, that's up to him. But I do not think one should encourage enthusiasts digging on battle fields, even if there might be a historical interest.
For the legal question still unanswered: I do not know the situation in Gary's homeland but in the Low Countries and France it's forbidden as long one doesn't have a permission. Law is a bit complicated and differs per regio, but digging up and possessing explosives is unlegal there.

regards, Kieffer




-- Edited by kieffer on Wednesday 2nd of February 2011 10:59:26 AM

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Gary bristol uk

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Hi gary I fieldwalk in battlefields and pick up bits and bobs including live stuff which I leave ready for the French mod to dispose of, relic hunting is a very enjoyable hobby and it's only as dangerous as you allow it to be, Its probably more dangerous to drive to the battlefield than it is to hunt for relics. As for bones etc as long as they are treated with respect what harm does it do to reburry them and say a few words, chances are when they first entered the earth these poor souls did so with no dignity what so ever.

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