Landships II

At least he didn't claim Berry-au-Bac for Patton thus far. Courage! On les aura.

Thanks, Ivor, but with the greatest respect (as we say In England on occasions such as this), it's not me that needs convincing. I'm bloody certain Patton didn't lead his non-existent men into battle in their non-existent Tanks. This pillock seems reluctant even to accept that.

More troublesome is the 'observer' theory. His reasoning is that he has twelve books that say Patton was at Cambrai. Never mind that the claims are unsupported and remarkably similar and that it is not unthinkable that they might be clones. Patton's biographer tells you where he was instead, but that, apparently, is only one opinion. "You can talk about the earth going round the sun all you like, Mr. Copernicus, but I've got a dozen archbishops who'll tell you different. We've got a consensus."

J***s C****t!

sorry - mistakio!

-- Edited by PDA on Saturday 29th of January 2011 12:38:14 AM

-- Edited by PDA on Saturday 29th of January 2011 12:38:35 AM

You are aware that John Wayne was with Patton when they invented the tank and then singlehandedly defeated Germany?






-- Edited by PDA on Saturday 29th of January 2011 01:59:34 AM

http://www.history.com/topics/battle-of-cambrai

No mention of the wee b****r on that page

Paul: Quite so. On the Wiki page about Cambrai, a puzzled punter who has obviously read the Patton page enquires as to why the USA is therefore not mentioned amongst the combatants. Should I quote the Cambrai article to the editor in support of my case?

Of course Patton isn't mentioned on history.com - he couldn't possibly be - but the editor takes the (quite correct) view that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, he also believes that writers who talk with confidence about events that never took place have more authoriy than a man who spent half his life researching Patton.

Rect: Oh, yes. I gather GSP was unusual, to say the least. He and J.F.C. Fuller probably got on famously when they met on Alpha Centauri (Source:Wikipedia). However, if Patton's diary turns out to say, "Tuesday: Went to watch tanks at Cambrai," I think we may take that at face value. Even if he claims that he went on the back of one of Hannibal's elephants.

With no disrespect to our valued American contributors, I do hope that the editor's determination to cling on to this dubious and trivial claim is not a result of the hubris that we sometimes come across.

Anyway, I might have had a hit on the WFA Forum. Stand by. I'll have this b*****d.

I just looked up my copy of patton The man behind the Legend by Martin Blumenson. Page 98 ....Patton spent two weeks at the French tank training center near Compiègne ..... While he was there the first real tank battle took place at Cambrai...He visited the British near Cambrai, spoke with the brigtade commander and his chief of staff (JFC. Fuller) and gained insight into tank procedures....

Well I do no read that to say he was present at Cambrai

I think we should start inventing stuff of our own.

How about the British Scientist Captain Nemo invented a Submarine Dreadnought that transported Alan Quatermain, Dorian Gray, Mina Harker, Dr Jekyll...

Tee hee. I like this tactic.

It has crossed my mind, that in changing the Cambrai entry to show that a couple of Americans were nearby, the omniscient editor did not write that Patton was present (in any capacity). Is that an admission that the man and legend weren't actually there? Or just another unfortunate consequence of poor language skills?

The thing about Wikipedia is that they do a ratshit job crosschecking:

From the Wikipedia article on George Patton:

"Depending on the source, he either led the U.S. tanks or was an observer at the 1917 Battle of Cambrai, where tanks were first used in significant numbers.^[10][11][12] As the U.S. Tank Corps did not take part in this battle, the role of observer is the more likely. However, in The Patton Papers: 18851940, author Martin Blumenson makes no mention of Patton being at Cambrai, stating only that on December 1, Patton went to Albert, not too far from Cambrai, to discuss the ongoing battle with the chief of staff of the British Tank Corps, Colonel J. F. C. Fuller.^[13] Patton received his first ten tanks on March 23, 1918 at the Tank School and Centre, which he commanded, at Langres, Haute-Marne department."


Having set up the lie about US Tanks at Cambrai the author proceeds to demolish it and introduces an authoritative source to show Patton wasn't at Cambrai.

Regards,

Charlie

Excellent, Ivor. I wonder if the editor would accept that, or has he got half-a-dozen potboilers and the testimony of a vagrant that contradict you?

We could always wear him down by sleep deprivation. I didn't get away with these for long. They've been deleted on the grounds of sarcasm.

This will interest many light railway fans...

12th Engineers at Cambrai Citations

.Captain R. B. Albaugh.

"Captain R. B. Albaugh, Twelfth Engineers, D. L. R., for exceptional
meritorious and conspicuous services at Cambrai, France, American Expedtionary Forces. In testimony thereof, and as an expression of appreciationthese services, I award him this citation."

"Awarded 19, April, 1919."

Signed John J. Pershing,
Commander-in-Chief.

Sergeant Elliot Beebe.

"Sergeant Elliot Beebe, Company "E," Twelfth Engineers, for ex-
ceptionally meritorious and conspicuous services at Cambrai, France, American
Expeditionary Forces. In testimony thereof, and as an expression of appreci-
ation of these services, I award him this citation."
"Awarded 19, April, 1919."

Signed John J. Pershing,
Commander-in-Chief.

pg 62 History of the Twelfth engineers, U.S. Army (1919)

"Thus it was, that the first Americans fought in the world
war. Caught without arms, they fought with whatever they
had at hand, where possible, picking up a fallen British com-
rade's rifle, or getting one from a dead Hun.
The Twelfth's poet, Private Hubert W. Kelly of Company
"D," most ably pictures the scenes of that day before Cambrai
in his verses dedicated to our comrades in arms, the Eleventh
Engineers, entitled, "The American Engineers who Fought at
Cambrai." The Eleventh suffered heavily in killed, wounded
and captured."

the book is heavily illustratedwith photos including tanks

Further reading

The fighting engineers  1918 

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides on Saturday 29th of January 2011 06:44:17 PM

Hi James, my thoughts entirely... Im not certain on those citations above as theres no date with them.. there are many Historys of US engineer units on the archive 27th 301st etc it would take an age to wade through, some good stuff though..

I thought Kermit was a Muppet whats he doing in mesopotamia? looking for sesame street....

Cheers

From: THE  AMERICAN  EXPEDITIONARY  FORCES  TANK  CORPS IN  WORLD  WAR  I:
FROM  CREATION  TO  COMBAT by Captain  (P)  Dale  E.  Wilson. Thesis

"Whatever  their  individual  strengths.  Patton  and  Braine  knew  little
or  nothing  about  tanks,  so,  on  19  November,  the  two  officers  were
ordered  to  report  for  two  weeks  of  instruction  at  the  French  Light  Tank
Training  Center  at  Chamlieu  near  Paris  to  prepare  them  for  their
duties. ."

"During  the  first week  at  Chamlieu,  Patton  had  time  to become
thoroughly  acquainted  with  the  Renault  tank.  He  drove  the  vehicle,
noting  its ease  of  handling  and  surprising  comfort  in  contrast  to  the
heavier  British  tanks.  Although  noisy,  it  could  move  at  the  pace  of  a
running  man,  had  a  remarkably  short  turning  radius,  bucked  and  reared
like  a  horse,  and  could  easily  bulldoze  small  trees.  All  of  this
greatly  pleased  Patton,  the  cavalryman.  The  vehicle's  only  major
drawback  was  visibility.  When  "buttoned  up"  (driving with  all  the
hatches  closed.),  the  driver  had  only  three  small  s]its  through  which  to
observe  the  terrain  in  front  of  him.  The  gunner's  visibility  from  the
turret  was  little  better.
In  addition  to  driving  tanks,  Patton  fired  their  guns,  observed  a
maneuver,  worked  on  tactical  problems.  toured  the  repair  shops  and  tank
park,  and  spent  long  hours  discussing  how  best  to  employ  tanks  in  com-
bat."

"Braine  joined  Patton  at  Chamlieu  on  Tuesday,  27  November,  for  the
second  week  of  training.  Patton  thought  this  training  was  even  more
interesting  than  that  conducted  during  the  first week. "

"On  20  November,  while  Patton  was  at  Chamlieu,  the  British  launched
a  major  offensive  at  Cambrai.  At  6  a.m.,  Major  General  Hugh  Elles
kicked  off  the  attack with  a  force  of  350  heavy  tanks. "

"Patton  left Chamlieu  on  1 December  bound  for  Paris  and  the  Renault
Tank  Works  .,  Billancourt.  While  en  route,  he  stopped  at  Albert with Colonel  Frank  Parker  to meet  with  Fuller.  The  trio discussed  the  attack on  Cambrai.  tank  doctrine,  and  tactics.*
On  3  December.  Patton  and  Braine  toured  the  Renault  factory.  They
were  able  to  examine  the  light  tank's  design  and  construction  and,
during  the  course  of  their  tour,  recommended  four  minor  improvements  to
the  tank  that  the  French  later  adopted."

Unfortunatly some of the document is unreadable but
* he seems to quoting here from:   Baine.  "Personal  Experience  Report."

Cheers


-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 30th of January 2011 03:05:27 PM

-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 30th of January 2011 03:30:16 PM

From this Document:  United States Army in the World War, 1917-1919: organization of the American Expeditionary Forces. PDF


On November 30, the Germans counterattacked in force and recaptured most of the ground that the British had won.
The American troops involved played a minor and impromptu part in the battle. For
three months before the operation, three American engineer regiments had been constructing railroads in the vicinity of Cambrai. On November 30, when the German counteroffensive began on the southern face of the Cambrai salient, the 11th Engineer Regiment came under fire in the villages of Fins and Gouzeaucourt. The American groups in Fins joined the British 20th Division and served with it to the end of the operation. The 12th Railway Engineer Regiment delivered ammunition to British artillery. The 14th Railway Engineer Regiment operated light railways in the area of the British VI Corps and delivered ammuni­tion to front line units. Marshal Haig, in his "Despatches," characterized the work of
these American regiments as "prompt and valuable assistance."

Cheers
 

-- Edited by Ironsides on Sunday 30th of January 2011 04:33:10 PM

Ivor - even by your standards, that is out of this world. I like it when you warm to a subject; it invariably produces remarkable results.

So do you think that this butcher's bill earns the USA a place among the "belligerents" at Cambrai? I hear that a Chinese labourer was crushed by a fascine. What do we about him?

Stop Press! The USA has disappeared from the list of belligerents at Cambrai!

-- Edited by James H on Monday 31st of January 2011 04:41:30 AM

Thanks James I try to do best with the available resources, for me this means mostly the Internet, I guess its lucky that such imformation is out there to be found at all....

"So do you think that this butcher's bill earns the USA a place among the "belligerents" at Cambrai?"

I think Technically the answer is yes, The USA offically recognised their contribution in the Battle...
The American presence had their own command structure for administrative and organisational purposes and the men were directly commanded by their own Officers and NCOs, their duties were mostly logistical, railways, light railways, roads, movement and unloading of supplys and war material, tanks, ammo etc the reports would suggest they were effective in  this regard...
However as far as I can make out they were not combat trained and most were unarmed, although there is some conflict there.... 

Question, would you leave out a part of your army, even non combatants are entitled to recongnition in a particular operation and these were more then that.. Or so it seems to me.

The Chinese I thought of them too, but havent followed it up I think it depends on the circumstances and the command structure... but I dought that Asian labourers would have been recognised for anything at the time, but could be wrong.... as Civilian contractors to the British Forces on the Western Front? but not specifically Cambrai....

Question, does every group of different nationality need a mention in a specific battle or Operation, there must have been many more?
Eg a man serving in the British Army regardless of original or present nationality is surely a British Soldier first and formost...

In regards to Patton and the US Tank Corps at Cambrai... Ive been this route before  some years ago, but it took a while to jog my memory...

None of the sources Ive quoted  mention any contribution by US Armour at Cambrai 1917... conclusion: there is no basis in Fact.....

Cheers


-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 31st of January 2011 01:08:47 PM

Astonishing exchange - concensus among the marginally informed is more valuable than an analysis of the evidence and sources? The previous comment about Copernicus and the Bishops was quite prescient.

Regards,

Charlie

This is not as good as the stuff Ironsides is finding, but anyway:

The History Channel (where, it seems, many people get their 'facts') has a series called "Patton 360". It has been given various time slots in the few years I've lived here, but it is always on at some time in the week. Therefore, it has probably had quite an effect (one way or another) on all of the armchair generals.

To give you a taste, yesterday they stated how Patton knew more than Eisenhower, and if only the Allies had listened to Patton, WW2 would have been over in a flash, because Patton would have crossed the Rhine 5 minutes after the USA joined in with the war.

It strikes me that, as the program relishes in tall tales, if Patton had indeed invented the tank, and then led the 7th Cavalry to England's rescue in the World's first ever tank battle at Cambrai, the program would probably have mentioned it in every episode (just like they do everything else the great man "did").

The program is a factual documentary, watched by 100s of thousands, if not millions, so that might out-number the several cloned books Wikipedia is using. Episode one, is probably available on youtube; but if it isn't, you could just make it up. After all, that's all Wikipedia is doing.