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Legend

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Dummy Tanks Question
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Sorry if this is old. From Treat 'Em Rough!

"German mock-ups of a British Heavy Tank and a Renault Light Tank. The Germans used cloth, wood, and scrap metal to construct these dummy tanks, which were used in the Meuse-Argonne campaign to deceive Allied aviators."

Captain Wilson does get his wires crossed from time to time. Why Heavy Tanks in Meuse-Argonne, when both Allied and Beute were far to the north? How would supposed Allied Tanks deceive Allied aviators? Is it not more likely that these were for training German troops?

Happy to be enlightened.

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Legend

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Hi James interesting picture, I think the most likely explanation is to decieve the allies of the actual location of german tank units... similar things were done during WW2... dummy tanks, tanks disguised as trucks, trucks as tanks the first and the last Ive seen from WW1 pics...

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/worldwar2/theatres-of-war/western-europe/investigation/deception/sources/photos/2/

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/worldwar2/theatres-of-war/mediterranean/investigation/monty/sources/photos/2b/

WW1 dummy

http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e1/-images/2008/07/09/18918/army.mil-2008-07-28-093320.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/osborne_villas/2328853160/sizes/l/in/photostream/

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/B87AC611-E815-4E02-9981-CC5A9BA5DB6C/NA004995.jpg

http://www.imagestate.com/Preview/PreviewPage.aspx?id=1196181

Only Australians would use a dummy in action....

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=15938730

Cheers wink

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Field Marshal

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Bonjour,

I think that all wooden tanks built by Germans was only training tanks for German infantry on training camps.
I believe that the only dummy tanks, used during this war, was some Mark build by British Army.

If German dummy Mark could be used as decoy (the German Army also used the Mark), it was believable for Renault FT.
It is interesting to see that Germans never built Schneider and St Chamond's mock-up for training.

The French Army gave order to built A7V mock-up and, at least, two models were buid (check on photos).

Bonne journée - Michel



-- Edited by Tanker on Monday 14th of March 2011 12:45:05 PM

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Commander in Chief

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Bonjour!

I think Whippet mock-ups were used too. Even a German built, found in Lille, but I am not sure that one was a decoy or a 'trainer'. There are a few earlier topics on this forum, on mock-ups, with extensive listings and links to other info, and pictures.
And, sorry once again for diverting but I simply can't resist: a Dutch trainer or simulator or whatever, made of card and tin plate on a GMC chassis, in the roaring twenties.

regards, Kieffer


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Legend

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Dummys and the German Army

(/.) Dummy gun positions.- -The Germans make considerable use of
dummy gun positions near the occupied emplacements, and employ dummy
flashes in them.
(g.) Dummy trenches. It has been found unnecessary to dig dummy
trenches more than 20 inches deep ; provided the edges are kept sharp, it is
said that they throw sufficient shadow to appear like real ones in aeroplane
photographs.
(h.) Dummy saps. In chalky ground dummy saps are sometimes made
by turning ever the top soil and exposing the chalk, a small T-head being
constructed at the end of the "sap" and lightly wired.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(e.) The exposure of groups of dummy figures in the German
trenches, presenting the appearance of assaulting partie
leaving their trenches to charge.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10. Ruses and sniping. For remarks on snipers' posts and sniping
see under "k
Snipers' posts," on page 15. The following are example
of ruses which have been employed by German troops :
(a.) Dummy figures. Dummy placed some 60 yards in front of the
German trench ; on moving the dummy, it exploded.
Upright dummy in a shell hole ; small electric battery on the dummy
connected with an explosive charge in contact with an unexploded shell
Slightest movement of dummy caused contact to be made and exploded the
shell.
Dummy in German uniform, apparently a corpse, placed in No Man'
Land. Patrol going out to secure identification, found a strong German
patrol near the dummy. In another instance, the dummy was made to move
and beckon, as if for assistance.
Dummy moved along German trench to make our men expose themselves
when firing at it ;
fire at once opened on our men from a machine gun.
Dummies placed in 'empty trench to give it the appearance of being
occupied.

-------------------------------------------------

3. On April 4 I posted the dummies, which had been previ-
ously prepared, in the Blinddarm and between the Blinddarm
and the southwest corner of La Boisselle. The dummies were
arranged in three groups, which were fastened on to laths, op-
erated by strings leading to dugouts, thus insuring the safety
of the men operating them, even in the event of the heaviest
enemy fire.

----------------------------------------------------

1. Sufficient attention was not paid to rendering all works
as invisible as possible to ground and air observation.
Screens and dummy works must be employed on a consider-
ably larger scale than hitherto. (Cf. part la, pars. 3 and 19;
part 16, par. 5 et seq.)
1
2. The more defensive works there are, the more targets
must be engaged by the enemy, and the more will he be obliged to
scatter his ammunition.

-------------------------------------------------------

The identification of active machine guns must be rendered
as difficult as possible by the construction of dummy emplace-
ments.

-------------------------------------------------------

from official documents 1917

Cheerswink



-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 14th of March 2011 04:33:36 PM

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Legend

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Great detective work (again) Ivor. But those dummies James posted seem extraordinarily detailed to have been simply intended to fool allied aviators. I'm not sure offhand when steroscopy came into military use but ordinary panoramic cameras (and human eyes) at altitude are easily taken in by quite crude approximations - even carefully-placed two dimensional ones. Developing anti-tank tactics on the other hand ...

Just noting, for cross reference, one of the earlier topics on dummies in general - http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=38129549.

I may have to re-evaluate the dummy of Australian Prime Minister Billy Hughes (in the above) in the light of your findings but I'm reasonably sure that one was more in the nature of an antipodean version of a Guy Fawkes effigy (yet another purpose for dummies).

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Legend

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The corbis image above is of a dummy made from reeds caption claims its a decoy for allied bombing attacks... theres two visible in the image....so presumably its part of a production run...

Theres a book Airplane photography (1920) great detail and will probarbly answer most technical questions...

http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924015389244 

larger file

http://www.archive.org/details/airplanephotogra00ivesrich

The detail in the german dummies doesnt suprise me heres some more... 

Cheerswink



-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 14th of March 2011 11:18:09 PM

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Legend

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Magnificent, yet again, Ivor.

Wonder if this: The Germans make considerable use of
dummy gun positions near the occupied emplacements, and employ dummy
flashes in them

might have something to do with this, from a couple of years ago:

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Field Marshal

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 Bonjour,

"Dummys and the German Army . . . ./ . . . .  from official documents 1917",

Yes but, apparently, always nothing about German Dummy tanks . . . used on the Front line in 1918.

Michel


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Legend

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Hi Tanker, the documents predate Cambrai... I would presume that Dummy tanks as decoys would only be usefull once the Germans had sufficient captured tanks and actually intended to use them... However Im not suggesting that the Germans used dummy tanks in the same way as the British and Dominion Forces directly in battle... but rather as a behind the front lines deception... 

Cheerswink

-- Edited by Ironsides on Tuesday 15th of March 2011 10:35:40 AM

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Legend

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From: A survey of German tactics, 1918 US Doc pg 38


"Anti-tank Instruction.Courses of 8 days were held in
January. A large number took part as spectators. Wooden
tanks were used, at which machine guns and trench mortars
fired until the tanks had penetrated beyond the second line, when
the defense was taken over by the artillery. Instruction in the
vulnerable parts of the tank was given."

Cheerswink

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Field Marshal

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Bonjour,

"but rather as a behind the front lines deception"

I agree you for that.
It would be interesting to found ground or aerial photos of German dummy tanks in this position of rear front lines deception units.

Michel

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Legend

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Dummy A7V


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aka Robert Robinson Always mistrust captions


Legend

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Came across this... from the History of the Fifth Division AEF, mentions a patrol warning of a tank attack which didnt materialise... however infantry did attack...

Cheerssmile



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Legend

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Tanker wrote:

Bonjour,

I think that all wooden tanks built by Germans was only training tanks for German infantry on training camps.
I believe that the only dummy tanks, used during this war, was some Mark build by British Army.

If German dummy Mark could be used as decoy (the German Army also used the Mark), it was believable for Renault FT.
It is interesting to see that Germans never built Schneider and St Chamond's mock-up for training.

The French Army gave order to built A7V mock-up and, at least, two models were buid (check on photos).

Bonne journée - Michel



-- Edited by Tanker on Monday 14th of March 2011 12:45:05 PM

The Australians used dummy tanks in action in 1918 to a] bulk out the number of tanks that appeared to be supporting them b] fool the Germans into thinking tank attacks were about to take place where they weren't. These were wood and canvas Mk Vs moved around under fire by infantry men. The Americans used dummy tanks for training. Australia, Canada, Britain, Germany, and the United States all used dummy tanks for fund raising.

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Legend

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According to this:

http://ww-one.airforce.ru/equipment/page_01.htm the remarkable floating Mk I is used for "artillery firing exercises" (Russian) or "artillery target shooting practice" (Dutch).  Obviously this would be target acquisition and tracking exercises rather than live-firing.  Those punt operators would have been flat-out to match even the modest pace of a Mk I for realistic traverse so I'm supposing the whole contraption was towed, they just kept it away from the banks.

Here is a (later) Japanese take on the hardware:

DummyTankJapan.png



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