Landships II

James H · Legend

"With Care to Petrograd" - Russian speaker needed.

Stranger_NN · Private

IMHO, this text must read as: "caution, Petrograd. 6/743" (, ). And "6/743" is number of cable, or the distance to something, and so on..

-- Edited by Stranger_NN on Monday 15th of August 2011 09:26:17 PM

James H · Legend

Sorry. 743 is the number of the Tank. I think that what looks like a 6 is meant to be �.

If you were to write "With Care to Petrograd" in Russian, how would you write it?

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I believe that the symbol people are reading as a 6 has no sound in Russian. It somehow affects the letters before it. Sure I read that somewhere but I'm no linguist so I'll shut up and let an expert take the stage...

Gwyn

James H · Legend

Oops. The symbol hasn't appeared. It looks like a sort of square 6. But I was wrong anyway, and Gwyn appears to be right. "The hard sign, when put after a consonant, acts like a "silent back vowel" that separates a succeeding iotated vowel from the consonant, making that sound with a distinct /j/ glide."

I'm completely out of my depth by now. I was just wondering; if the inscription is wrong what should the correct version be.

-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 09:44:18 AM

MK1 Nut · Hero

Try....

�

Carefully Petrograd

The problem you are always going to have with this type graffiti, is that there is not always a literal translation. Add to that Cyrillic was still being messed around with at that time, bad spelling and the fact the person paintining it didn't know Russin, it probably does say something like 'With care to'.

Helen x

�

Oops it seems you can't print Cyrillic on here. smile

Basically, as far as I can tell, the top line is all one word.

Linky thingy

-- Edited by MK1 Nut on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 11:57:34 AM

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Ask Ivan from this forum. As far as I know his mother tongue is Russian.

K-Flak · Lieutenant

Neither Russian nor English is my mother language but I offer the following.

Indeed, the first line is one word which can be

a) an adverb meaning:

- carefully, cautiously, with caution, with care� OR

- guardedly, warily OR

- prudently

b) an adjective meaning:

- careful, cautious

- wary

- prudent

c) an interjection meaning:

- look out!

- look sharp!

The word Petrograd is quite clear!

The next one looks like a "no sound" sign but IMHO it could be as well a little Russian "B" (=W) which means "in"!

Therefore the meaning could be: "Look out! Petrograd in (tank number) 743!"

However, it would be wise to consult a mother language speaker.

�

Stranger_NN · Private

If it is a label on the tank, then we can assume the word "octopo)|(no" to prevent the enemy, in the sense of "fear me, Petrograd"

-- Edited by Stranger_NN on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 06:26:39 PM

-- Edited by Stranger_NN on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 06:27:58 PM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Ok, as I made a correct guess before, I'll hazard another guess that there shouldn't be a gap between that last character and the preceding word.

Gwyn

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Just spotted something else about this inscription. The last word ends with two Western As. This appears to be a misinterpretation of the Cyrillic letters AD, which are A (sorry - can't paste in Cyrillic characters cry !!!)�the . The preceding letters are a Cyrillic G (the right angle), then a P which is a Cyrillic R, thus reading GRAD - as in Petrograd.

So, the last character in Petrograd is wrong and the word as written says Petrograa.

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 10:17:06 PM

Ivan · Field Marshal

Gwyn Evans wrote:
Just spotted something else about this inscription. The last word ends with two Western As. This appears to be a misinterpretation of the Cyrillic letters AD, which are A (sorry - can't paste in Cyrillic characters!!!)�the . The preceding letters are a Cyrillic G (the right angle), then a P which is a Cyrillic R, thus reading GRAD - as in Petrograd.
So, the last character in Petrograd is wrong and the word as written says Petrograa.

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 10:17:06 PM

�Yes!!!

It wrote a stupped!

It must to be:�PETROGRAD'. Wroten:� PETROGRAA#

Here is the best site of translite: www.translit.ru

-- Edited by Ivan on Wednesday 17th of August 2011 02:13:39 AM

Ivan · Field Marshal

Sh%t I can't write no more Russian here disbelief �

CAUTION PETROGRAD (DE: ACHTUNG PETROGRAD)

�

-- Edited by Ivan on Wednesday 17th of August 2011 02:11:45 AM

James H · Legend

Thank you, Gwyn and Ivan. So obvious. It was staring me in the face all the time. I wonder who was responsible for the translation?

I couldn't get Cyrillic characters to work, either. Does enabling the Russian language/keyboard option do it?

Petrograd

Ah. Apparently not.

-- Edited by James H on Wednesday 17th of August 2011 08:47:44 AM

K-Flak · Lieutenant

The painter did not know any Russian or cyrillic letter therefore he wrote "A" again instead of a Russian "D". That makes sense because a Russian capital letter D looks very much like a Latin A for Western people if written a bit unsharp.�

What is known about this specific tank? (I do not know the earlier discussions here.)

When was the tank photographed?

Did the British employ this tank against the Soviet Russians or against the Germans?

I am asking because this fact would influence the intended meaning of the message.

-- Edited by K-Flak on Wednesday 17th of August 2011 08:49:02 AM

K-Flak · Lieutenant

As well I wonder if there were two tanks (or more) with the same message - 742 (Ivan�s pictures) and 743?

-- Edited by K-Flak on Wednesday 17th of August 2011 08:58:00 AM

-- Edited by K-Flak on Wednesday 17th of August 2011 09:03:03 AM

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

Whole writing was just to fool the enemy. Nothing to do with Russia.

Tank number 742, shown on a photo of Ivan, was D7 serving in D-Coy and took part in the battle at least in 1917 in Flers. It was male.

I assume that nr 743 wasn't so far away...

K-Flak · Lieutenant

Oh, I see.

Maybe the Germans should think Russian tanks or tank crews would participate in fights on the Western front.�

Mark Hansen · Legend

K-flak, the writing was all part of the disinformation to hide the purpose of the tanks. The name "tank" was to indicate that they were water tanks and the Cyrillic writing was to trick spies into thinking that they were being sent to Russia.

James H · Legend

Albert Stern says, "On May 15th (1916) it was decided that the Tanks should be numbered, the 6-pounder Tanks from 500 to 574, the machine-gun Tanks from 800 to 874, and that, as a disguise, all should have painted on them in Russian characters, "With care to Petrograd."

Unfortunately, that does not explain where 742 & 743 came from. I'm sure someone will be able to explain.

K-Flak is quite correct about the Cyrillic characters. See below the Russian 'A' (left) and 'De' (right). Easy to see how the mistake could have been made.

BTW, on Wikipedia, not entirely surprisingly, the Russian labelling had become confused with the "Water Carriers for Mesopotamia" in the general article on Tanks. The account also contradicted somewhat the claims in the article on WWI Tanks. I have taken the liberty of introducing some clarifications. If anyone disagrees, please feel free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank#Etymology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_in_World_War_I#The_Landships_Committee

Ivan · Field Marshal

http://translit.ru/?8492be=8492be&direction=ru&account=

James H · Legend

This is what I think it should be now, the first word, meaning "careful," being pronounced "achtarozhna" or thereabouts, with the 'ch' as in 'loch'. What looks like a capital M seems to be 'T' when printed but like a set of cricket stumps when handwritten.

-- Edited by James H on Wednesday 17th of August 2011 05:56:40 PM

Rectalgia · Legend

Well, I never knew that about the written capital "T".� Apart from that you should get the above pretty much with Google translate:

http://translate.google.com/#en%7Cru%7CBE%20CAREFUL%20PETROGRAD

Might be useful (editable-copyable Cyrillic text) for web searches, etc.

Google translations "flop around" a bit (might have changed since I got the result) but alternative translations are available by clicking on a translated word and selecting from the options offered - or by trying synonyms for the adjective, like "WARNING", etc.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

As I recall, Metropolitan built Mark Is had this marking behind the sponson, but Fosters tanks had it in front (or was it the other way around?). Do they both have the same error?

Gwyn

James H · Legend

Rectalgia wrote:
Well, I never knew that about the written capital "T".� Apart from that you should get the above pretty much with Google translate:

It does seem to be the case. This and many other sites say so. That is remarkable.

Was talking to a bloke the other week who was learning Russian. He said that whereas German has four 'cases' (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative), which is hard work, Russian has six. It sounds like a grueller.

Ivan · Field Marshal

www.translite.ru

Wroten (historic on the tank): OSTOROZHNO PETROGRAA''

Wroten (correct Russian): OSTOROZHNO PETROGRAD##

Copy text, then paste it into Word document and convert it into appropriate font - print. Done.

It comming (see att. picture). T is no standart. Wrote SH and must be flip vertically.

-- Edited by Ivan on Thursday 18th of August 2011 12:26:33 AM

James H · Legend

With respect, Ivan, I think that if that letter is flipped it becomes 'sh' rather than 't,' which would change the pronunciation of 'Petrograd.'

Rectalgia · Legend

James, I think you are both in agreement - flip the 'sh' for a cursive 't'. Ah, I remember now, I have seen the cursive 't' before. There was a girl, in 1970 or thereabouts - and she wrote my name like "Cmeb". I started to work it out, what she wrote on that note, but that flustered her and she snatched it back and ate it. Oh well ...

James H · Legend

Yeah. Rosa Kleb didn't do much for me, though, I have to say.

Anyway, this interesting item throws more light on the Russian caption idea, from the lips of Ernest Swinton. It seems that it also had its origins at Foster's factory. In his 1918 speech to Benjamin Holt in California Swinton asserted that the Foster's workers began to have doubts about the water-carrier subterfuge once work began on the production Tanks, and decided they were rotary snowploughs for Russia. So the Committee decided to encourage the idea.

Newspaper report of speech here

Ivan · Field Marshal

This "T" wit was not cursive only. Russian text have many variations.
Also ZH on the board of tank is no standart wroten. I think, so can wrote: C (flip horizontal) + I + C