Landships II

James H · Legend

Whippet Seating Arrangements

CharlieC · Legend

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There is a page on Landships II on the interior of the Whippet - http://landships.info/landships/tank_articles.html?load=tank_articles/whippet_internal.html.

It seems to show there is a seat for the driver but the gunners stood. There wasn't a lot of room in the Whippet citadel I can imagine the ergonomics of fighting the tank were pretty bad - ankle deep in hot cartridge cases. I wonder if the crew wore spats like furnacemen to stop hot stuff getting inside their boots.

Regards,

Charlie

Rob · Legend

The crew would most likely be wearing puttees like other soldiers which would stop anything get in the boots, or overalls (or both!) which would fall over the boot and stop anything going in. Certainly can't imagine it being pleasant in there, especially standing up at the relatively high speed of 8mph - being in a Mk IV or V at half the speed with more room must have seemed a luxury!

James H · Legend

Thank you, gents. As well as the pics on Landships there is a splendid walkround of the Whippet in Brussels, including lots of interior shots, here:

http://gurth.home.xs4all.nl/afv/pdfs/whippet2.pdf

I can't see anything that looks like a purpose-built seat (except for the driver's). I wonder if the ammunition racks for the Hotchkisses doubled as seats?

I've had to calculate this, but it seems that the interior height of the crew compartment was only a little over 4'6", so I would think the gunners must have been seated on something.

baldwin · Hero

Not so much to do with seating arrangements,but Whippet models.We have the Emhar and the Millicast one.Reading the review on the kits on the old Landship site the Millicast one gets a very poor review.Having just built one I can't understand why the reviews were so bad.

Has anyone else built one ???

James H · Legend

Just out of interest, comparison between Whippet prototype with turret and with fixed compartment. The turret looks as if it was high enough for a gunner to stand.

PDA · Legend

@James. I think the gunners did not have seats. I think they stooped. I have read that in one of Fletcher's books regarding the heavy tanks, so I would�not be surprised if it were the case for the mediums as well.

In one of the accounts (Boilerplate War, Musical Box, Tank Warfare, or whatever) I remember reading that they were up to their ankles in fuel from burst flimsies.

@Baldwin. The review of the Milicast whippet is based on their first tooling. The model was re-tooled some years ago (at least 6 years ago), but unfortunately the review is from before then.

James H · Legend

I'm very surprised at this. My maths was never very good and seems to have deteriorated dreadfully, but I'm reasonably confident with these particular sums. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Acc to my calculations, the maximum headroom inside the Whippet was only about 4 feet. The centres for the mg mounts were 2'8" off the floor of the compartment - about the height of a normal, domestic door-handle. If I sit on a normal chair with my elbows on my knees, that's about right. I can't see men crouching - after a few minutes it's murder.

I'd always thought the Whippet looks very roomy, with enough space to move about quite freely, but it can't have been.

There's a photo of Swinton and George V inspecting a Whippet and chatting to each other across the top of the fighting compartment. The roof only comes to breast height on Swinton, who I don't think was exceptionally tall. In the photo below, even though you have to allow a bit for perspective, the compartment looks tiny compared to the lads on the back of the Tank.

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi PDA et al.

@James. I think the gunners did not have seats. I think they stooped. I have read that in one of Fletcher's books regarding the heavy tanks, so I would�not be surprised if it were the case for the mediums as well.

It looks to me that the gunners straddle the ammo racks that line up with the gun mount, it would make sense to be able to hold on to something with the thighs as both hands would be busy.

The racks would have been in the way to anyone stooping.

PDA · Legend

whilst straddling those racks they would also have been stooped

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

PDA wrote:
whilst straddling those racks they would also have been stooped

�Point taken, just pointing out that in effect there was seating arranged in�way that gave the gunner something to be braced upon.

-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Wednesday 21st of September 2011 08:36:56 PM

-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Wednesday 21st of September 2011 08:37:35 PM

James H · Legend

I'm surprised this is turning out to be such a puzzle. The photo below is of Swinton standing at the rear of the turret, talking to His Maj. The top of the entry door is at the height of Swinton's waist - in my case 3' 8". The height of the mg mount is 2' 8", and the max height of the compartment is 4' 6", which all ties in.

On these excellent drawings there is an ammo rack dirctly beneath 2 of the mg mounts, and possibly a third slightly set back from the entrance door, for the rearward mg. The rack on the starboard side appears to be flush against the back of the driver's seat, so it doesn't seem possible for the gunner to straddle it.

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/whippet_interior_side.jpg

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/whippet_interior_front.jpg

I can't see that anyone would have been able to stoop in that position for any length of time. None of the surviving Whippets seems to have its interior in a sufficiently decent state of repair for the arrangements to be observed - at least, I haven't seen one. But I'm sure the gunners must have sat on the ammo racks, with the man behind the driver sitting side-saddle.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Sorry I know this is a little off-topic, but can anyone read the number of the Whippet in the last post (it's on the inside of the door). Thanks.
Gwyn

Rectalgia · Legend

Impossible from that resolution.� My best guess, manipulating the image a bit, is A297 - but the faint clues could easily be an artifact of the resampling and sharpening algorithms (mine and prior "enhancements") as much as they could be of� the base information - and can anyway easily be misinterpreted.� I tried.� You need Agent Timothy McGee for the job.� Or the source image.

Rectalgia · Legend

James H wrote:
I can't see that anyone would have been able to stoop in that position for any length of time. None of the surviving Whippets seems to have its interior in a sufficiently decent state of repair for the arrangements to be observed - at least, I haven't seen one. But I'm sure the gunners must have sat on the ammo racks, with the man behind the driver sitting side-saddle.

�Rule 1 for armoured operations is "Stay braced and alert at all times while the vehicle is in motion," and I'm sure our sturdy forebears would have worked that out early in the piece (or all worn Bibendum suits and there was no room for that) - even if those machines had only a top speed equivalent to a lazy jogging pace.� The ride experience is not unlike inhabiting a working cement mixer, we are told, with a few added diversions thrown in.� Rule 2 - "Ignorance of Rule 1 will be reflected in crew medical records under fractures, contusions and abrasions."� Well, I just made up those, but that's more or less the impression the "tankies" give out.

I think you must be right James - does http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs/frsowhippet/fr_soulier_whip_int%20%2813%29.jpg (same as http://www.landships.info/landships/tank_articles/images/Whippet_Internal_19.jpg in Landships II) indicate such accommodation?� Looks like it to me.

(Depending on, I think, browser setting generally and cookie settings specifically, some users may see only a notice that "remote linking is not permitted" from landships.freeservers.com when they click on internal links to images there - that might be overcome by simply visiting the site pages - following which the links "here" may automagically work - but anyway, I give the Landships II link as well.)

gemsco · Captain

Have you seen the Whippet preserved by the Royal military museum of Brussels ?

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PDA · Legend

Gwyn Evans wrote:
Sorry I know this is a little off-topic, but can anyone read the number of the Whippet in the last post (it's on the inside of the door). Thanks.
Gwyn

I believe it is 392. In this video collection it can be seen early on, and then again at 2m 25s driving off.

I think crew comfort was not a consideration at all in these first medium tanks. I wouldn't be surprised if they knelt down the whole time they were in action. Or crouched, or stooped, or draped themselves over the ammo racks. But it was only while they were buttoned up, in action.

The one at CFB Borden has only the driver's seat remaining from the internal fittings, so it's not much help. The one in the Brussels Museum (as seen in the photos on the Landships pages) is definitely the most complete.

James H · Legend

Quote from David Fletcher:

"As originally specified (in the polygonal version), the crew consisted of a driver, commander, and two machine-gunners, but in the confined space it proved very difficult to work effectively, and in practice just the one gunner was carried."

He also says, "There is a possibility that when Tritton's prototype appeared at the Oldbury trials it sported an Austin armoured car turret." The turret appears to have been intended to house one Lewis gun, and DF says that such a layout suggests a crew of two in this version.

gemsco · Captain

The Whippet preserved by the Royal military museum at Brussels has no seats. It still contains wooden floor. The gunner must have been able to go from one side of the casemate to the other and to displace the machinegun from one emplacement to the other. No other way than kneeling to do that..

Rob · Legend

Staying on the Whippet topic, does anyone know of any published memoirs by Whippet crews?