Landships II

James H · Legend

The Budapest-built Holts.

Pat · Commander in Chief

James H wrote:
Can't find it now, but a while ago I raised the question of where the Holts used by A-H on the Western Front came from, since there didn't seem to be any reference to the KuK actually buying any. A possible answer was that they came from the fabled Holt factory in Budapest

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Please find the discussion here:

http://landships.activeboard.com/t44742486/holts-captured/

James H · Legend

Ta, Pat. I was also thinking of this one, in which Jack says there was a Holt factory in Vienna. I've asked him to respond, to see if we can get to the bottom of this.

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Well, the first machine inspected by Vollmer and his engineers had been supplied by Caterpillar-Holt, Budapest, who also detached an engineer/mechanic to operate and explain the design. - Only later was another Caterpillar machine located in Germany.

And for the tracks, the Germans had to turn to Caterpillar-Holt, Budapest, for help when they encountered problems in constructing them. - Later Vollmer would write that the cast steel US American tracks had to be replaced by ones made from forged steel, but doesn't say who produced the latter ones.

The famous 'producer list' says that Caterpillar-Holt, Budapest, was responsible for producing/furnishing the tracks. However, we've already found other producers named in this list not really involved in A7V production...

Thus, from the German sources a clear answer will not come forward.

James H · Legend

But the Caterpillar archivist is adamant that there was no factory in Budapest.

Just discovered this in the Tankograd book on the A7V:

"In copying the Caterpillar Holt tractor design too closely, German engineers had failed to lift the track's front wheel sufficiently off the ground."

This rather conflicts with the claim in the first book for the involvement of the supposed Budapest factory because the design couldn't be copied locally.

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

No conflict there, the problem was not copying the running gear. This was done using steel profiles commercially available in Germany. - The problem was producing the tracks, and for this they turned to Caterpillar-Holt. Whether Budapest supplied tracks - or only good advice - isn't clear.

Vollmer's remark about swapping the US American tracks for forged steel ones may only refer to the prototype vehicle. And who was responsible for supplying the forged steel tracks remains completely obscure - if one decides to ignore the 'producer list'.

James H · Legend

The very kind lady at Caterpillar has supplied further information that indicates that Budapest couldn't have supplied either tracks or advice, because there was no Holt factory there:

"I have not seen any documentation about a Holt factory operation in Vienna (or anywhere else outside the U.S.) or official Austro-Hungarian Army connections. �Steiner was our dealer representative in the area and he makes no mention of such an occurrence in his detailed memoirs. �If such action had taken place, Steiner would have been well positioned to know details of this arrangement and would have included it in his memoirs. �We also have no documentation in our legal records about such a factory and there is no mention of it in newspaper accounts about the Holt organization at that time. �Instead, I would say that someone misinterpreted the events that transpired - 1) that the Holts authorized Steiner as a dealer; 2) that Steiner demonstrated our machines to public and military customers; 3) and that when the war broke out and the Holts disengaged from selling our tractors in that region, the Austrian-Hungarian military organization confiscated all Caterpillar track-type tractors in that region and made their own attempts to design and manufacture tractors of the Holt design."