Landships II

James H · Legend

The Blue Mk V again.

TinCanTadpole · Legend

Clues? Do you mean time and place?

James H · Legend

Anything that might help to explain when, where, how, or why this colour scheme originated. It's just a punt. You never know.

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

Looks just like WW2 Caunter camoflage colours!

Lothianman · Colonel

Just asking out of ignorance, but is this in itself�credibly a genuine colour photo from WW1? As opposed to something that was colourized in later perhaps using whatever colours the artist had to hand - which may not have corresponded to reality (if indeed the artist had seen reality)? ... I wonder if it's been painted up in the studio from a black and white photo. The numbers on the tank look awfully bright for a 'straight' photo, and I also notice the sponson has not been coloured/colorised to the same degree, but it seems to be from the same vehicle and not from some differently painted tank?

Of course, as it is a museum tank then the last known running date would give a final possible date for the scheme - which could be someone's imagination in the later half of the 20th century, as is indeed implicit in the comments to date. �

James H · Legend

AFAIK it's a post-war, genuine colour photo. One assumes it was brown while in service.

Have found this on this excellent site:

"'H41' painted on forward hull sides. White/red/white stripes painted on forward hull sides and roof. Painted overall brown (previously a green and black camouflage scheme).

In 1921, the tank went to 4th Battalion Tank Corps, returning to Bovington in 1925. Used by Central Schools for demonstrations, recovery and towing, it was on work-shops strength for the Second World War, coming into the museum in 1954 - the year of its last overhaul. Apart from replacing some exhaust valves and piston rings, and fitting an electric starter, no major work was needed to put it in running order. It went to the British Army of the Rhine (BAOR) on 14 July 1967 to march past Her Majesty the Queen when she took the 50th Anniversary Parade of the Royal Tank Regiment, of which she is Colonel-in-Chief. In 1985 it underwent minor restoration, and was then repainted after having its paint stripped. It then took part in the parade on 12 July 1985 when new Standards were presented to the Royal Tank Regiment by Her Majesty the Queen. The parade took place at Sennelager, near Paderborn, West Germany."

That would explain the WWII camo, though not exactly when it was done. This gent has, unfortunately, been deceived by it, and has painted his Emhar Mk IV to match.

It seems possible to me that, since it was one of the few WWI Tanks still in running order in the 1960s/70s, people looking for references seized upon it and got hold of the wrong end of the stick. That would explain the Funckens' and several others' misinterpretation. Now it's in the system.

TinCanTadpole · Legend

Purnell (I think) had a series in the early seventies of magazine-books covering various military topics from at least WW1 to what were then contemporary times.
The issue on tanks up to 1945 had at least two colour photos of 9199 in this scheme, one of them a sort of overhead view.
The series was out around the same time as the classic TV series "The World at War", so one presumes it would have been quite popular and may have helped mislead.

Lothianman · Colonel

Most interesting - many thanks.

TinCanTadpole · Legend

It's only a detail and may not give any clues, but I notice that the 'eye' on the front track horn has been painted out. Can anyone think why, or know of anything in the history which this could point to?

James H · Legend

I've got a jumble of half-remembered facts here. The Mk V at the IWM London has an eye painted on the side, but that's not 9199. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mark_V_Tank_Imperial_War_Museum.jpg I read somewhere that a businessman from Malaya or somewhere similar made a donation of money to build a Tank, and the finished product had an eye painted on, because it was a symbol of good luck according to the gent's religion or tradition or somesuch. Which Tank it was, I can't recall, but I think I've got the info somewhere.

In the Funckens' illustration, which we assume they based on the vehicle as it was in the 60s or 70s, the eye has reappeared, so it could be the case that it was either retained on or introduced to Excellent when she got the 1940 paint scheme, painted over as an afterthought (for camo reasons), and then restored after WWII, until the complete repaint. Maybe the eye got mixed up in Tank Corps folklore and was painted on more than one vehicle.

I'll try to find the info on the donation. There's obviously more to this than meets the eye.

Later that same day . . . .

Aha. If in doubt, consult Landships

'B. Eyes. Tanks of "F" Batallion - and maybe also other units - sported paintings of eyes at the front side of the tank. Allegedly they were put there after a Chinese labourer asked the question, "How can the tanks see without eyes?" Another version puts it as a result of a tank being donated by Chinese businessmen in Malay. Anyhow, the joke caught on, and it later became sort of a unofficial symbol of the Royal Tank Regiment.'

-- Edited by James H on Monday 20th of February 2012 01:19:44 PM

TinCanTadpole · Legend

My attention gets drawn by the men and their attire; I think the clue may be there. Unfortunately the pic is low res, so conclusions are difficult, but they appear to be wearing a typical late-war combo of uniform tunics and overalls. I don't mean by this that I think the picture a wartime one, but if it was taken, say, in the sixties, the men would obviously be wearing historical costume.
The man on the right has sideburns, which I think were not particularly fashionable before the sixties; the one on the left has perhaps vestigial sideburns, so maybe it is indeed a 60s/70s photo., with men in period uniform.

I would also say that colour photography was very rare before WW2 and only beginning to catch on during. The tonality has a yellowish hue typical of photos between the 40s and 70s/80s; my guess is maybe seventies, probably late sixties.

James H · Legend

The pic is an enlargement of a small Internet image of the cover of The Guinness Book of Tank Facts and Feats, which is why it's not top quality. Gwyn E said a few days ago that he has a copy of the book. If the dust cover is still intact, he might be able to improve matters.

PDA · Legend

There is video footage of this blue-painted Mark V on British Pathe's site. They are giving some sort of demonstration to HM The Queen. It may also appear in F. Forsyth's "Soldiers" series.

Also, I believe, if you could see the photo in enough detail you'd see that one of the crewmen is a young David Fletcher and I think they are commanded by E. Bartholomew. In any case, the pic is not wartime.

I suspect this camo scheme is a museum staffmember's artistic interpretation of a description of the Solomon camo scheme. Just as we see interpretations of the dazzle or lozenge camo schemes on "restored" WW1 guns etc.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

James H wrote:
'B. Eyes. Tanks of "F" Batallion - and maybe also other units - sported paintings of eyes at the front side of the tank. Allegedly they were put there after a Chinese labourer asked the question, "How can the tanks see without eyes?" Another version puts it as a result of a tank being donated by Chinese businessmen in Malay. Anyhow, the joke caught on, and it later became sort of a unofficial symbol of the Royal Tank Regiment.'
-- Edited by James H on Monday 20th of February 2012 01:19:44 PM

The story of the Chinese labourer is in fact complete balderdash, and that of the Malay businessman only tells half of a fascinating tale.� I wrote an article on this for the South Wales MAFVA magazine "Dragon" a few years ago called "Chinese Eyes: Superstition or Cynicism" that I'd be happy to donate to Landships II, if I knew how to do such a thing.�

Essentially, a Malay businessman called Yew Tong Sen (spellings vary) donated enough money to buy a Mark IV.� A Whitehall mandarin (who provides the only 'Chinese' connection) suggested painting�eyes on the tank, and a dragon on its nose, in what he considered to be an oriental fashion.� The idea then was to provide a painting of the tank to the businessman as a thank you�and an inducement to contribute more money to the war effort.� So, nothing to do with Chinese superstition and everything to do with western�cynicism.� Full details in the article.

Gwyn�

CharlieC · Legend

�

Gwyn - if you would like to donate the article to Landships II just email it to me (charlie[dot]clelland[at]gmail[dot]com) with any images you'd like included. I'll look after the conversion to html.

Regards,

Charlie

James H · Legend

Right. Info is pouring in.

First of all, ta to Gwyn and Charlie. Brilliant.

Now, whilst I normally am in total agreement with PDA on most matters, I fear he has let himself and the whole school down on this one.

He is quite correct that Her Maj inspected 9199 in Germany, the occasion being the 50th anniversary of the Tank Corps. Clips here (short and sweet) and here (longer, but worth the wait). It isn't 9199 in the 1985 TV documentary Soldiers; it's Excellent, with David F, indeed, at the helm. See pics below.

My view is that both 9199 and Excellent were painted up in this fashion because they were, technically, in service during WWII (however briefly or tenuously).

Meanwhile, some new info on Excellent has arrived, and I've posted it on that thread.

PDA · Legend

James H wrote:
I fear he has let himself and the whole school down on this one.

�My apologies to the school. Whichever one it is.

Rectalgia · Legend

PDA wrote:
�My apologies to the school. ...

� Never mind him PDA

Vivant maecenatum caritas qui nos hic protegunt

James H · Legend

How dare you. I'll have you know I got a Blue at Oxford. Unfortunately, I was snookered on the Pink.

Now, this is a photo of a Mk V* being used for target practice at Lulworth, date unspecified. I've cropped the pic, but the vehicle partially visible bottom right is a Vickers Medium Mk II, which makes it 1925-39. Since the service Mk V*s were all brown, this must be a post-WWI camo job.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Which brings me to this picture, also of a weirdly painted Mark V* but this time a French range target.� I suspect that it was the fashion to paint range targets distinctively, partly to help avoid nasty accidents.� (If it's painted the same as your tank, don't shoot at it!)

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 11:28:39 PM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Charlie C - I'll be in touch.

Also, whilst I'm posting, I agree with whoever said the Blue Mark V was someone's attempt at reproducing the Solomon scheme.

Gwyn

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

The attempt was almost good. They used right naval colours and scheme, but the vessel and world war were wrong...

�

http://mookey20.deviantart.com/art/HMS-Belfast-Colour-22346474

Ironsides · Legend

Not forgetting this dummy...

http://www.photographymuseum.com/autochrometank.html

�

Cheers smile

James H · Legend

Don't know if anyone can date this, or if it throws any new light on previous thoughts.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I'm sure I remember those plant pots and I first went to Bovington the week that Elvis Presley died. Does that help?

Gwyn

James H · Legend

Don't blame yourself, Gwyn. He wasn't a well man.

My first trip to Bov was so long ago I can't remember the details. Someone there will know, I should think. If you're in touch with DF he might be able to help.

I'm still not convinced by the Solomon camo argument. I'm sure it's WWII-influenced.

Paul Bonnett · Hero

I left the Junior Leaders Regiment in late 73 and can remember this new layout inside the museum just before I left. There were a few rhomboids on plinths outside in those days as well as things like Boarhound, T.O.G II etc etc and all in surplus DBG (?) . I used to spend many Saturday afternoons wandering around inside the old museum and also sitting on the exhibits that were outside. We also volunteered to repaint those outside during the summer months in exchange for church parade on Sundays. Now if I recall correctly there was an open day around this time (72-73) and various Tanks from the museum plus Cheiftains and Scorpions put on various displays up at Clouds Hill. The MkV was decorated for the occasion in this strange scheme. Who was behind it I have no idea.
HTH
Paul

-- Edited by Paul Bonnett on Sunday 22nd of April 2012 01:55:09 AM

TinCanTadpole · Legend

Paul Bonnett wrote:
The MkV was decorated for the occasion in this strange scheme. Who was behind it I have no idea.

�I'm pretty sure the scheme predates 1972/73 by at least five years; British Pathe's footage of the Queen overseeing the 50th anniversary of the RTR in 1967 in Germany shows 9199 drive past painted in this scheme (or something very like it - it's a month or two since I watched the clip).

CharlieC · Legend

�

Anyone remember the Christine Keeler affair? The presence of John Profumo - the War Minister at the time in the clip reminded me of how he fell from power.

For those of you of tender years - Profumo was bonking Ms. Keeler who was also

bonking Ivanov - naval attache with the Soviet Embassy. Profumo was tossed out for lying to the British Parliament. Wikipedia has a fair summary of the events.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 23rd of April 2012 02:48:42 AM