Landships II

Ironsides · Legend

Bengal Lancers at Ramscapelle/RamsKapelle Oct 24 1914 fact or fiction

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Rob there is short thread started by centurion I think nobody seemed to know but it is an old one, Im inclined towards the fiction rather then fact basically Im fishing though.... wink

It could be a mistaken location as it seems Ramcapelle was defended by the Belgians, the first chapter of "How I filmed the war" (G.Malin) starts there sometime in october and it was definatly in Belgian hands then but theres no dates, its only at the end of his book that Malins says he was there in October.

It was the Belgian sector and French troops seem to have been in the general area as well, I cant think why though that Bengal lancers should be in the area the Indian Corps specifically elements of the Lahore Division only started entering the line at Ypres a couple of days before the 24th and its a long way off too.

The only Bengal Lances� possibly in the Ypres area before the 24th were the 15th Lancers (Cureton's Multanis) attached to the Lahore Division, but I can't find any mention of them other then in Orbats... apparantly the Indian Corps Cavalry didnt arrive untill later.

Just found this at http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/yser.htm

"The Belgians were forced to withdraw from St George's, over the Noordvaart, and by the 26^th they had taken up positions at Ramskapelle, on the embankment south of Nieuwpoort."

"Despite the rising waters, the Germans advanced on Ramskapelle, and penetrated into the ruins of the village, only to be repulsed at the point of the bayonet by a mixed Franco-Belgian counterattack."

"On the 31^st, the German once again attacked at Ramskapelle, but were thwarted by strong Belgian resistance and the sheer impossibility of operating in these conditions.� Following this failure, the Germans closed down offensive operations on the Yser, and turned their attentions to Ypres."

So it would appear the Story of Bengal lancers capturing Ramscapelle on the 24th� is just that, a Story....

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 27th of February 2012 12:11:48 AM

-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 27th of February 2012 01:05:47 AM

Rob · Legend

Blimey, that Durham Duplex safety razor looks terrifying! I could put the question up on the Great War Forum if that would be any use?

Ironsides · Legend

"Pity my granddad's not available. He was in the Jullundur Brigade."

Hi James Im guessing the 1st Manchesters, curiously in Willcocks its the "Jallander Brigade"

"On the 24th October the Germans made a determined
attack all along our line, but were repulsed, and it is at
this stage that the Lahore Division was called on to replace
some of the weary and war-worn units in the firing-line.
Most accounts which describe the part taken by us in this
particular fighting speak of the Lahore Division as if it
had been a complete unit, but as a matter of fact at that
time it consisted of less than one complete Brigade, with
the Divisional Artillery and a regiment of Cavalry*. As if
determined to keep up the splitting process to the full,

in this case also the 1st Manchesters of the Jalandar
Brigade had been detached to help the French Cavalry,
and then the 5th Division, and was away for over a week
(47th Sikhs also detached and two companies Sappers and
Miners), thus leaving a few Indian battalions to start the
game by themselves. The Sirhind Brigade was still
detained in Egypt and did not join till December, and the
Ferozepore Brigade as already described had been split up
and was fighting with the British Cavalry near Ypres."

from page 60�

�"With the Indians in France (1920)"General Sir James Willcocks

*The cavalry mentioned above would likely be 15th Lancers(Cureton's Multanis)

The story of the Great War : history of the European War from official sources

Military operations, France and Belgium, 1914�vol2� see pg182 & 216��

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 04:24:26 PM

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Rob thanks for your offer but�I dont thinks its necesary, one thing�I had'nt considered was the censorship involved at the time. rather�I was looked for mistaken reporting etc...

I believe this Pic/article�to be a result of the censors restrictions, you can though compare it with the action by the 47th Sikhs (formally Bengal Infantry) at Neuve Chapelle on the 28 oct 1914 when they attacked and took the village but couldnt hold it suffering 50% casualtys as a result.

Cheers smile

James H · Legend

There's a ref here http://www.freefictionbooks.org/books/s/20634-the-story-of-the-great-war-volume-ii-of-viii?start=93 but it doesn't tell us any more than Ironsides's investigations.

Pity my granddad's not available. He was in the Jullundur Brigade.

Ironsides · Legend

More on Ramscapelle

from: Die Schlact an der Yser und bei Ypern im herst 1914 pg49

��"So strong, however,
was the pressure against the enemy that the French
were compelled to reduce their forces about Nieuport
and north of it to weak detachments, and send constant
reinforcements to the area Pervyse-Ramscappelle.
A German airman, who was killed on the morning of
the 30th, had shortly before his death reported that
the enemy were beginning to withdraw. Our assault
began at 6.30 a.m., though the ground in the area of
the 5th and 6th Reserve Divisions had become extra-
ordinarily swampy. It seemed impossible that the
recent rains could have raised the level of the ground-
water to such an extent. Nevertheless the attack

made considerable progress. The 11th Brigade of
the 6th Reserve Division succeeded in forcing its way
into the eastern part of the strongly-fortified village
of Pervyse, whilst of ihe 5th Reserve Division, the
48th and 52nd Reserve Regiments reached the railway
embankment, and the 48th pushed on beyond it
towards Ramscappelle. Although every house had
to be attacked, it succeeded in reaching the western
end of the village. The 12th Reserve Regiment
also made considerable advance."

From: The campaign of 1914 in France and Belgium (1915) Pg 307

"On October 30, Ramscapelle was recovered by a night charge
of French Chasseurs and Algerian rifles; and on November
3, the lost passages were completely recovered."

From: The invasion & the war in Belgium from Li�ge to the Yser (1917) pg 348

"About 4 p.m. a new assault, supported by a battalion of the 7th Line
Regiment, enabled the Franco-Belgian forces to take some houses on
the western edge of Ramscapelle. The fight went on till the evening
Then the trumpet again sounded the charge, and French and Belgians
rushed at the houses of the village, from which the German machine
guns vomited forth death. There was terrible hand-to-hand bayonet
fighting."

"The Germans began to flee, because, behind the village, the Turcos were making a fierce charge amid a din made up of every noise : whistling of bullets, click of crossing steel, the cries of the Germans in flight from the threats of angry Orientals"

Cheers smile

Ironsides · Legend

One final account from an english translation of a Belgian original:

The war of 1914. Military operations of Belgium in defence of the country, and to uphold her neutrality�(1915)

Report Compiled by the Commander in Chief Belgian army

Pg 84

"The attacks became more persistent on the 30th, both on the left and on the centre of the line, but were everywhere repulsed, except opposite Ramscapelle, where the enemy, throwing bombs into the trenches, gained a footing on the railway, and pushed forward to the village. This was the only point at which the line was pierced. A counter-attack, preceded by violent preparatory artillery fire, was made against Ramscapelle, in the afternoon and during the following night, by the 6th Line Regiment, a battalion of the 7th, a battalion of the 14th, and two French battalions. It was entirely successful, the Ramscapelle wayside
station being re-occupied by the Belgian and French troops, so that the line of defence was reconstituted as before.
On the other parts of the front the enemy showed no more activity whatever, and the bombardment diminished in intensity. Everywhere the inundations continued to progress, and already made the trenches between the railway embankment and the Yser dyke untenable by the enemy in many places.
The battle of the Yser was over."

�

Cheers smile

Ironsides · Legend

�

I was wondering which french units Participated at Ramscapelle and after a long hunt found this:

http://vinny03.perso.neuf.fr/gg/leshistos/8rmt38.htm

�

Le R�giment, embarqu� le 28 octobre � Oulchy. arrive � Furnes (Belgique), le 29 octobre; il est plac� sous les ordres du G�n�ral GROSSETI, commandant la 42e Division.

Le 4e Bataillon (Commandant CARON) est dirig� d�s la descente du train sur Lampernisse qui est violemment bombard�. L�tat-major, la CHR et le 5e Bataillon (Commandant BRET) cantonnent � Furnes. La situation est critique; les r�giments belges qui tiennent le secteur, harass�s de fatigue par suite de combats Incessants, ayant des effectifs tr�s r�duits, r�sistent tr�s difficilement � la pouss�e ennemie. Une nouvelle attaque tr�s violente les contraint � c�der les tranch�es du chemin de fer de Ramscapelle qui est occup� par les Allemands.

Le 30, le Lieutenant-colonel, commandant le 8e Tirailleurs, re�oit l'ordre de diriger l'attaque de Ramscapelle et de la voie ferr�e. Il a sous ses ordres, avec le 8e Tirailleurs, le 16e Bataillon de Chasseurs; un Bataillon du 4e Zouaves, un Bataillon du 151e doivent coop�rer par le Sud a cette attaque et deux Bataillons belges par le Nord.

Un premier �lan donne aux Chasseurs la partie Sud et Ouest du village et au 8e Tirailleurs les premi�res maisons � l'Est. Malgr� les difficult�s du terrain coup� de foss�s et inond� en maints endroits, Ramscapelle est enlev� apr�s trois attaques successives. Les Tirailleurs ont �t� superbes d'audace. On peut dire que ce fut la journ�e de la ba�onnette.

En fin de journ�e, le R�giment comptait� 62 tu�s 163 bless�s 43 disparus"

google translation:

"The Regiment embarked October 28 to Oulchy. arrives at Furnes (Belgium), October 29 and is placed under the command of General GROSSETI, commanding the 42nd Division.

The 4th Battalion (Commander CARON) is led off the train dice on Lampernisse which is heavily shelled. The Military Staff, the CHR and the 5th Battalion (Commander BRET) confined in Furnes. The situation is critical, the Belgian regiments holding the sector, harassed with fatigue due to continuous fighting, with very small numbers, very difficult to resist the enemy thrust. A new very violent attack forced them to cede the trenches of the railway Ramscapelle of which is occupied by the Germans.

On the 30th, Lieutenant-Colonel, commanding the 8th Rifles, was ordered to lead the attack Ramscapelle and the railway. He has under him, with the eighth Riflemen, the 16th Infantry Battalion, a battalion of the 4th Zouaves, a Battalion of the 151st must cooperate with the South and the attack by two battalions Belgian North.

A first impulse gives hunters the south and west of the village and 8th Tirailleurs the first houses in the East. Despite the difficult terrain cut by ditches and flooded in many places, Ramscapelle is removed after three successive attacks. The infantrymen were superb audacity. We can say that it was the day of the bayonet.

By late afternoon, the regiment had 62 killed 163 wounded 43 missing"

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Friday 2nd of March 2012 01:37:41 PM

Hussar33 · Corporal

I noticed the german marines at tsingtao wore the jager style shako. I always thought it was only part of the dress uniform for them.

Ironsides · Legend

They shall not Pass