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Post Info TOPIC: French experimental helmets


Corporal

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French experimental helmets
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Im aware of the experimental 1911 "detallie" helmet but how often was it really used in the great war? i know it was used by the horse artillery early in the war  but  i have seen drawings/photos of french cavalry (converted to infantry) wearing something similar with either a khaki or dull blue covers from 1915 to apparently 1916. are these detallie helmets or modified cavalry helmets or modified adrians with short cavalry crests?



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Legend

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Does this help? http://landships.activeboard.com/t14154961/mystery-uniform-french/

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Legend

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With respect, I think Johny is confusing French and U.S. experimentals. AFAIK, the Detaille steel artillery helmet was issued in small numbers (it's illustrated in the Osprey book), but the cavalry helmets were just the standard pre-War issue with the crest removed, as shown on the other  thread. Could be wrong, as always.



-- Edited by James H on Monday 19th of March 2012 10:40:16 PM

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Colonel

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Hi,

Maybe this can help You:

http://landships.activeboard.com/t42770089/strange-helmets-and-creeping-tank/

"Ironsides" has send me the link May 10th last year, great book

DJ



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Corporal

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That is one of the pics that confused me because the other pictures confused me because they show the detaille helmet made out of a material similar to that ertzats material that german pickelhaubes were made out of in 1914-1915 as substitute material. I have also seen other detaille helmets made out of what seems to be black leather, are all these detailles or different things? and also what is this at the bottom right? it says it is a cavalry helmet with a adrian crest. it seems a little strange.



-- Edited by Hussar33 on Tuesday 20th of March 2012 11:17:06 PM

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Legend

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I'm finding the whole thing rather confusing, because the Reseda and Detaille seem to have existed side by side.I've also read somewhere that one or the other of them was made of aluminium.

But somewhere I've got a pic of a cavalry helmet that explains what I think is confusing you. Or partly. Bear with me.



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Legend

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Some links the impression I get is the Reseda is earlier

details the Paris Parade 1912:

http://vlecalvez.free.fr/Hommes28eRI_Dechamps/Homme28eRI_Paul_Dechamps.html

http://vlecalvez.free.fr/Hommes28eRI_Dechamps/defile14juillet1912.jpg

Leather Casque d'essai "Detaille" pour troupe:

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CPicZ.aspx?E=2C6NU0CCZJ3L

Steel, Casque "bourguignote" type Detaille pour hommes montés de l'artillerie:

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CPicZ.aspx?E=2C6NU0PO3401

Cheerssmile



-- Edited by Ironsides on Wednesday 21st of March 2012 09:37:32 AM

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Corporal

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Except that strange cavalry helmet with adrian crest. Are these all different models of experimental french helmets

1st- resada?

2nd- normal detaille

3rd- steel detaille

4th- similar to the leather helmet but brown

top one shows prewar leather artillery helmets



-- Edited by Hussar33 on Wednesday 21st of March 2012 01:05:12 PM

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Corporal

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what would be the helmet in the osprey drawing of the artilleryman? is that one of the steel detaille with a different crest and color? 



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Legend

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I'm finding this a bit of a puzzle. Have found a lot of pics of the "Boer", Detaille, and Reseda, and can't fathom out the chronology. Will continue to ponder. I suspect the answer lies in that very expensive book.

In the meantime, though, I think this relates to H33's original enquiry. Am I right in thinking that the PDF is from Andre Joineau's book on the French Army 1915-18? I've only got the 1914 one, which shows the Artillery helmet as black, not brass, and describes it as polished steel.

Anyay, it seems that, at first, the cavalry used adaptations of the pre-War helmets. Then, before the Adrian, there were some attempts to introduce a type of helmet similarly based on the Fire Brigade type. The picture below appeared in the "name-that-piece-of-equipment" section of Militaria magazine. Luckily, I happen also to the issue in which someone came up with the answer. It's described as:

"Cavalry helmet M15, based on the 1874 helmet. This is the Officers' version; more careful design, especially (I can't translate this exactly - les attentes: possibly the points of attachment) of the chinstrap, which were inverted compared to the Other Ranks helmet. It was the last version of the cavalry helmet before the adoption of the Adrian."

Are we getting closer?



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Corporal

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I get most of it now except how to distinguish the detaille from the resada, is my earlier post correct about that being the resada? And what is the name of the artillery helmet? thanks for the information.

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Legend

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"I've only got the 1914 one, which shows the Artillery helmet as black, not brass, and describes it as polished steel."

Hi James the description is quite possible a workshop handbook I have "Gilding silvering and Bronzing"  B.E.Jones Editor 1st edition 1918 describes half a dozen methods for blacking steel to a deep durable black, rust resistant and high polish finish, but the longevity of the finish depends on the method... also describes the method for almost any colour you like on almost any metal...

Its possible the steel helmet in the photo I linked too has lost its original finish...

Cheerssmile



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Legend

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This is as I understand it. It might need some tweaking, but:

The Reseda was a greenish-grey (with red epaulettes in Grande Tenue) and a cork helmet covered in cloth of the same colour (for Infantry) and steel helmet for Artillery.

The Detaille was dark blue tunic, garance trousers, blue puttees, and metal helmet. There was a light blue tunic and greatcoat and red/blue kepi for Campaign order.

Although I am reluctant to disagree with Ironsides, it looks to me as if the two uniforms were evaluated at roughly the same time, mostly by the 28th IR.

Only the Reseda Artillery helmet saw service in the War, in limited numbers.

Cavalry began the War with canvas covers over their crested helmets. The Cuirassiers were converted to  Infantry, at first with the canvas-covered, crested helmet, then (very riefly) with the crest removed, and by December 1914, with a kepi replacing the helmet.

L&F Funken are a bit confusing; they show a mounted Cuirassier in Horizon Blue with matching cover for the crested helmet in 1915. I don't understand that bit.

As I say, I've gathered some illustrations that seem to explain it. I'll see if I can put together a page that makes it clearer. Patientez!



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Legend

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Hi James heres a few links from "Le Petit Journal" may be interesting, I have'nt searched through the whole lot so there may be more... worthwhile looking though some lovely illustrations..

"Le Petit Journal"

http://cent.ans.free.fr/menu.htm

new helmet for the artillery 1902

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1902/pj59116031902.jpg

New uniform proposal 1903

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1903/pj64101031903.htm

New uniform proposal 1911

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1911/pj106623041911b.htm

new uniform proposal 1912

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1912/pj111210031912b.htm

I dont claim its cronologically correct though more sources would be needed for that..

The brass crest  and plate on the Reseda helmet appears to be removable for campaign.. perhaps some of the others are as well?

Cheerswink



-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 22nd of March 2012 10:48:37 AM

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Legend

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Tremendous effort, Ivor. What a splendid site. There might also be a better pic of the Romanian uniforms there, as well. Ploughing through.



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Legend

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Hi James I seem to recall seeing a large plate for Balkan War uniforms but didnt look that closely....

Heres another link I came across re the artillery helmet it says 1912 but I think this may be the Reseda version from 1911 as it doesnt have the square peek, plus a very Reseda looking top knob.. it may have been re-finished...

http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t46583-casque-d-essai-mod-1912-d-artillerie

Cheerswink



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Corporal

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That cleared a lot up.


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Legend

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I think I'm getting somewhere. It seems that an artillery helmet was trialled as early as 1902, and the idea persisted through the various experimental uniforms between then and the outbreak. André Joineau's illustration of the 1914 artillery shows what he describes as "the latest model", and I've seen it described somewhere as "the second type". So I think the first picture below shows (l-r): first artillery type; second (Detaille) artillery type; Detaille infantry type (distinguished by the square peak). Unhelpfully, as far as I can tell, the Detaille infantry helmet seems to have been leather, not steel.

The second picture would now seem to be of the Detaille/Scott uniforme, which had dark blue tunics for Parade Order and bleu cendré (ashy-blue) tunics, greatcoats, and kepis for Campaign Order.

Can't help but feel that the brass finish in the Osprey book might be a mistake

Now, in 1912 new chrome (I think) helmets were introduced for the Hussars and Chasseurs à Cheval, similar to the Cuirasier and Dragoon types but with a lower crest. Can't be sure how widely they were worn; Funcken shows both regiments wearing a mix of helmets and shakos. There had been earlier types, as seen 2/3 of the way down here, but I can't make out what they were made of or where they fitted into the scheme of things.

The Reseda is at least as confusing. It seems that the helmet came in three versions; one with a crest like the Detaille, one (presumably Campaign Order) with no accoutrements, and the detachable plate thing that Ironsides pointed out. They're here.

Please feel free to correct any misapprehensions. Life is made more difficult by the fact that in black and white photos it's hard work to distinguish one outfit from another, but comparing colour illustrations gives a clue.





-- Edited by James H on Sunday 25th of March 2012 12:20:05 PM

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Legend

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Hi James some additional helmets etc...

New Uniform 1897

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1897/pj36621111897.jpg

Casque d'essai 1902 d'artillerie du 1er type

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm63.pl?f=NR_LOT&c=5403&t=temartic_FR_D&db=kat62_f.txt

Casque d'essai 1902 d'artilleur 2e type
 

Casque d'essai 1902 d'officier d'artillerie du 2e type

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm63.pl?f=NR_LOT&c=5402&t=temartic_FR_D&db=kat62_f.txt

casque modèle 1902 du 2e type (1907)

http://i31.servimg.com/u/f31/11/21/61/16/jan20910.jpg

from this thread that shows several cavalry helmets presumably the Hussar and Chasseur type? 1880-81? perhaps suggesting the 1902 is a development of the 1880-81 type?

http://histoiremilitaria2.discutforum.com/t442-casques-d-essai

Casque d'essai "réséda" pour officier

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=500&FP=19568953&E=2K1KTSGY9ELB5&SID=2K1KTSGY9ELB5&New=T&Pic=292&SubE=2C6NU0CCANHM

"Projets pour les nouveaux uniformes de l'armée française, 1912" original illustration of the Detaille uniform proposal showing parade and campaign versions
 

 http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?Total=157&FP=19418005&E=2K1KTSGYFF33F&SID=2K1KTSGYFF33F&New=T&Pic=65

Fantassin du 12e régiment en tenue de campagne

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?Total=157&FP=19418005&E=2K1KTSGYFF33F&SID=2K1KTSGYFF33F&New=T&Pic=67

Clairon d'infanterie en tenue de parade

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?Total=157&FP=19418005&E=2K1KTSGYFF33F&SID=2K1KTSGYFF33F&New=T&Pic=64

Casque de hussard modèle 1913, avec couvre-casque en drap bleu-horizon

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=500&FP=19568953&E=2K1KTSGY9ELB5&SID=2K1KTSGY9ELB5&New=T&Pic=313&SubE=2C6NU0CG1OZS

Thats all for tonight

Cheerssmile



-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 26th of March 2012 12:40:44 AM

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Legend

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Blood and sand. This will require some study. I thank you.

More layers than an onion, this one, but I think I'm beginning to grasp it.

Now; can anyone explain this?



-- Edited by James H on Monday 26th of March 2012 02:38:36 PM

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Legend

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Hi James the 1880-1881 Helmet turns out to be 1879 I think the middle one of your 3 helmet pic...

news paper: Le journal illustré n°42 16e année , dimanche 19 octobre 1879 : les nouveaux uniformes de l'armée française fantassins - hussard - artilleur

any idea of the name in the text?

Edit added : Casque d'essai modèle 1879 essayé aux 6ème et 11ème hussards, from this thread... Un casque adrian rare 

 

Cheerssmile



-- Edited by Ironsides on Tuesday 27th of March 2012 07:16:05 AM

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Legend

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Ironsides wrote:
any idea of the name in the text?

 It looks as if it could be Monsieur Ferdinandes, after a sketch by Monsieur Dick.



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Legend

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Hi James, doesnt ring any bells I cant find anything so far for proposed uniforms under that name, does appear to be earlier though, so I think can be safely put to one side... that leaves us with three groups of helmets the  1902 pattern, 1911 Reseda and 1912 Detaille, I think the Reseda with the full comb crest which is very similar to the Detaille crest is a slightly later mod to the original Reseda helmet...

looking at the pics I think chrome means Black chrome..

re detaille I would agree on the osprey illustration, seems to be the wrong colour.

trivia...The single soldier appears also in the group pic...

Cheerssmile



-- Edited by Ironsides on Tuesday 27th of March 2012 12:37:17 PM

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Corporal

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I had no idea they attempted a home-service style helmet in 1879 so it must not only be a early 1900s thing.

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Legend

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Hi All Some 1872-4 unmodified and modified cavalry helmets and a link

http://heaumespage.cultureforum.net/t386-cavalier-demonte-en-1915

none of the altered Helmets have any provenance as far as Im aware other then they all appear to be modified from Dragoon or Cuirassier helmets... so not sure you can call them experimental

I think it would be very easy to confuse these helmets with the Infantry/artillery prototypes especially when covered....

The French Army seems to have had a habit of testing "experimental" Uniforms often it seems in large quantitys(several regiments at a time) pre war , as far as I can see the proposed Uniforms had to be accepted by parliament and passed as law and maybe that was the problem the old red and blue was just to popular to be ousted.. I suspect the red trousers for the parade uniform were an attempt to make the Reseda more acceptable but that rather defeats the object...

thats my impression...

Cheerssmile



-- Edited by Ironsides on Wednesday 28th of March 2012 08:22:19 PM

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Legend

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I'm back to square one now. Ivor's postcard above shows: the first rank in (dark) blue tunics, red pants, & blue puttees, with chrome helmets; second rank in grey-green tunic, red pants, grey puttees, and cork helmets; third rank in grey-blue tunic, red pants, dark blue puttees, and chrome helmets.

I can't fit all this together. Detaille and Scott are mentioned separately (whereas I'd thought it was a joint venture). The helmet in the second rank appears to be one of the réséda types, and the tunic looks réséda. The red pants don't make sense, as far as I can see.

I'm flummoxed. I'm not even sure now which helmet is the answer to Hussar33's original question. I think we need a French expert.



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