Landships II

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Tanks with names starting with the letter E would have been from E Battalion, Tank Corps. E Battalion became 5th Battalion on 1 January 1918, but I believe that they had ceased using this naming scheme by 1918, but then resumed it at least in the UK in about 1920. I can't immediately trace a tank called Entente (though this rings a vague bell for some reason), but both Eldorado and Elephant were E Battalion tanks used during the Battle of Third Ypres (31 July 1917 - early October 1917). Nor can I immediately find a tank commander by the name of Sawyer, but I would like to look into this a little more. I shall be away for a few days now but will try to find time once I'm back.

Is there any detail in the documents you have that might assist - dates, places, names of colleagues etc? I assume that Elephant and Eldorado are mentioned. What's said about them?

Gwyn

Hello Gwyn

thank you so much for your reply, its really lifted my spirits.

James transferred to the Tank Corps from the Suffolk Regiment sometime in June 1917, and became Tank Commander on 10th October. He mentions 3 "big battles" The battle of the Ridge [29.7.17], The push over the Steinbach river, and The line at Laangemark and Paeschendale Ridge. He mentions other places like Kitcheners Wood, Poelcapelle [where a tank from "D" put a railway engine off the line], Poperinghe, Dirty Buckets Corner, Frish Farm, St Jean, St Julien and many others. He talks about being "up and down the line" many times over a 3 month period.

In September 1917 he says that 4 of his tanks had to be ditched in No mans land in a line due to the terrible mud and huge shell holes that "you couldn't place a sixpence between them". These were Elephant, Eldorado, Etna and Egypt. He says they were ditched/unditched several times before Elephant got a direct hit, a shell went thro' the top and burst inside. He describes this time as "awful beyond words" and was clearly deeply distressed by the death of Sgt French and serious injuries to the rest of the crew. He mentions Oakley and Moore carrying Lt Shires back under fire. He goes on to say that he went up over the canal to guard the Energetic which was also stranded.

James talks about Entente being "the best kept tank" in the Coy, and says that "Mr Griffiths was very pleased indeed with it". He was also in charge of the Empress.

Gwyn I have about 10 pages of his diary that mention many things that might be familiar to you. If you could send me your email address I'd be happy to share this diary with you. I've been over to France and Belgium twice now to visit places where my great Uncles lived/fought/died during the Great War but I feel so ignorant about so much. I would really like to understand more about the Tanks, James obviously cared deeply for his tanks and the men he served alongside. Can you tell me what type of tanks they were so that when I'm looking thru' books, websites etc I know what to look out for?

I look forward to hearing back from you.

PS my name is Caroline.

Wow thanks Charlie. My head is absolutely buzzing!!

I've looked at the places you suggested and cant believe the detail thats recorded about where these tanks went and what they did. Some of the things I've read match whats in James's diary so I'm surprised and disappointed that his beloved 'Entente' just doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. His name doesn't appear either although some of his friends names are there. Do you think his tank may have been 'renamed'? Could it have been Eldorado 11 that replaced the one that was ditched. Lt Griffiths is mentioned but linked to a different tank.

I've watched some of the video's on 1V tanks and am beginning to feel like I am developing a greater understanding about what James's life must have been like whilst he was out there. Now I know more about what I'm looking for I will keep on searching. Unfortunately all of my relatives, who may have had more information about my Uncles experiences during WW1, are long gone so the chances of finding any photo's or letters etc are nil.

I cant thank you enough for your advice, I really appreciate it.

Caroline

Hi again Charlie

I've only just noticed your edit. I'm not sure if this is him or not. I dont have his DOB [although my sister may have this info] but he was born in 1886 if that helps. He may well have started as a Sergent, his brother Horace was a Lance Corporal, but I dont think he moved over to the Tank Corps as James did. 

James and Horace came from a large family. Their little brother, Charles, was my Grandad but he was only 9 when the war started. He was a lovely man, and was with the Medical Corps in WW2. I am named after him. I wish with all my heart that someone had spoken about Horace and James when I was younger, I would have loved to have met James. He sounds like such a resourceful bloke who somehow managed to get hold of food, and sometimes alcohol, with his mates even during some of their darkest days. His sense of humour also comes alive in his diary, along with his deep love for his family and sweetheart back home.

Horace is buried at the Vendegies Cross Roads British Cemetary, in Bermerain, France. Its a tiny cemetary and I was unable to find it on my first visit. However, with the help of a sat nav I did find him in August 2010. He was only 28 when he was killed in action on 24.10.18, just a few weeks before the war ended.

I have 2 children, my son is 26. I still find it hard to believe that James, Horace, and thousands of other young men, spent all those years away from home in hellish situations, never knowing if today would be their last. James was younger than my son is now when the war ended.

Thank you again Charlie.

Caroline

 

Hello Caroline

This is a fascinating story. My main interest is the tanks who fought in 1916 but there are always overlaps with their later actions including Ypres and Cambrai.
E Battalion's action in the Ypres salient has not (to the best of my knowledge) been researched but this may cause one of us to take it further.

Without sight of the diary, I cannot make any detailed comment but would offer the following.

- 78441 Sergeant James Sawyer would appear to fit the bill. His service number would have been issued in early 1917 at a time when the first six battalion were formed (including E Battalion) and large numbers of infantrymen transferred.
- His description of "Mr Griffiths" would link to E battalion and would indicate that James was not commissioned at this time.
- James could well have commanded a tank as a SNCO; although this was unusual in 1917 it was not uncommon in 1918.

Stephen

Hi Caroline,

A quick explanation of the rank structure (and formations) - http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GREATWAR/2000-11/0974962447. There's much more to it than that, but it might serve as a sufficient introduction.

Steve

For our purposes, anything below Second Lieutenant is a Non-commissioned Officer, e.g. sergeant, corporal, lance-corporal.

Hello Mike

thank you for your advice. I didn't know there was a tank museum so this is definitely somewhere I will visit this summer. I will also try to get hold of the two books you mention. I do have two excellent books about tanks but, because I didn't know exactly what I should be looking for, there's only a little info on the 1V's. One is Tanks of World Wars 1 and 11 by George Forty, and the other is also by him called Tank Action from the Great War to the Gulf.  To be honest I've been looking in the wrong places to find out about James I think. I've been trying to identify the battles he may have been active in - then looking for any mention of what the tanks were doing, specifically those named beginning with E. I only found this site by accident!! Until last month I worked full time as a nurse specialist so have had limited time to spend on any serious research about my family.

I've just found out James's DOB - 30th January 1896. I'm hoping this may confirm that he is the person that Charlie has found.

Thank you again for your interest Mike, I'm really touched by how helpful and friendly people are on this forum.

Caroline

I'm hoping I've done this right. Attached is a picture of James. I dont know anything about uniforms so I'm not sure if this pic was taken when he first joined up

-- Edited by Romeo on Friday 4th of May 2012 11:40:00 AM

Sorry Charlie just noticed on my earlier post I've given you the wrong year of birth - it was 1896 not 1886.
Caroline

Yep, the badge is the Swinton-designed one. The shoulder flashes denote the batallion. See here: http://www.royaltankregiment.com/en-GB/coloursofindividualregiments.aspx

Thank you for all the suggestions guys. I'm away this weekend but will start doing some on line searching before arranging a trip to the museum. I think I'll probably need to subscribe to Ancestry.com for a while in order to look for definitive records. A quick scan came up with 5 or 6 James Sawyers for 1917 but you need to pay before you can get a look at any details. When I've found anything concrete I'll post on here. Thank you all again for your interest and support.

Caroline

I have found a few points that confirm aspects of the diary's information. Five tanks of E Battalion were scheduled to go into action together on 20 September 1917, namely E51 Egypt, E52 Etna, E41 Elephant, E43 Eldorado and E53 Eager. Of these Egypt, Elephant and Eager were ditched in No Man's Land. Eldorado was ditched at the start and didn't enter action. Elephant was hit by a shell on the rear of the left sponson and this killed Sgt French. The commander of the company involved was Capt Needle, and I have another document that shows that Capt A.E.C. Needle commanded 15 Company of E Battalion, so I think it reasonable to assume that Sgt Sawyer was in one of the other tanks of this Company.

Eager was commanded by 2/Lt Shires and his corporal was Edward C. Oakey. I can't see the name Moore in the official records so this is a contribution to our knowledge.

I also have a candidate for "Mr Griffiths". My money is on 2/Lt A.G. Griffiths, who commanded E60 Emperor and which was also lost on 20 September. Emperor was a tank of 12 Section 15 Company E Battalion. Emperor was replaced but Griffiths didn't command Emperor II, at least not at Cambrai in November. Presumably he moved on to another tank called Entente but here the records let us down. I have a complete list of all E Battalion tank names at Cambrai and Entente isn't one of them. Perhaps the name sounded too conciliatory?

Still looking for more...

Gwyn

Gwyn Evans wrote:

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...I have a complete list of all E Battalion tank names at Cambrai and Entente isn't one of them. Perhaps the name sounded too conciliatory?
...

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No, no, the Entente were "us" (Britain, France, in the Entente Cordiale later Russia to make the Triple Entente, all pre-war), the Triple Alliance were our adversaries (except Italy changed sides since the start of the war did not involve an attack by either Britain or France on Italy, Germany or A-H).  Well, that's my understanding.  Entente was an excellent name for a WW1 British tank IMO.

Rectalgia wrote:

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Gwyn Evans wrote:

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...I have a complete list of all E Battalion tank names at Cambrai and Entente isn't one of them. Perhaps the name sounded too conciliatory?
...

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No, no, the Entente were "us" (Britain, France, in the Entente Cordiale later Russia to make the Triple Entente, all pre-war), the Triple Alliance were our adversaries (except Italy changed sides since the start of the war did not involve an attack by either Britain or France on Italy, Germany or A-H).  Well, that's my understanding.  Entente was an excellent name for a WW1 British tank IMO.

---

DOH! I knew that really!

Gwyn

FYI, enclose Swinton's original design for Tank Corps badge.

Hi Gwyn

 

I have the colchester tank as Eager II WD number 2846.  Are you saying that it is not Eager II that went to colchester but Eager I as it were?

 

Alwyn

Caroline has kindly provided me with a transcript of James'diary and this has provided a big clue (or two) that we didn't have before. It says: "August 22. I wrote a letter to Gyp for Hugh to post on to her in case I am knocked out and I stand quite a decent chance of getting pipped being in the supply section and my bus is to lead the way." Later, this: "Three or four days taking up ammunition ten times worse than being in a fighting tank because we have to fight as well as run the risk of getting hit with all the shells and petrol on board."

In other words, James' tank was a Tender, and not a Mark IV fighting tank. Now we know from records at The National Archives that in September 1917, 14th Company E Battalion had a Mark I Tender called "Europa" numbered ES3. I'm guessing that the other two companies in E Battalion had ES1 and ES2 between them and that one of these was "Entente".

It seems much more likely that a Tender (especially a beat up old Mark I) would be left behind to try to salvage tanks, than would a new-ish fighting Mark IV. Thinking about this, and despite James' worries about his chances of surviving a hit on a supply tank, he was probably safer salvaging tanks in in Flanders in November 1917 than he would have been with the rest of E Battalion at Cambrai.

Gwyn

Hi Caroline, I have been fascinated to follow this thread as I am currently researching D Battalion from the Third Battle of Ypres to Cambrai, and am also very interested in E Battalion as they were in the same tank brigade and often lived (and fought) alongside. In answer to an earlier comment about James's photograph, the stripes on his shoulder-straps are almost certainly the red and light blue colours of E (later 5th) Battalion - see an explanation and key here: http://www.royaltankregiment.com/en-GB/coloursofindividualregiments.aspx

You may be interested to know that some of the most detailed accounts of the Tank Corps in WWI were written by a junior officer in E Battalion called Wilfred Bion. He was in the same unit as your great-uncle and took part in the battles in the Ypres Salient, so his books would be worth getting hold of (possibly from a library, as they're very expensive). Bion was an extraordinary character - he was decorated for bravery and went on to become a leading psychoanalyst - and his books give a frank and sometimes scathing account of military life. The books describing his war experiences are called War Memoirs and The Long Week-End: http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Memoirs-1917-19-Wilfred-Bion/dp/1855751534/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336511651&sr=1-1 http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Long-Weekend-1897-1919-Part/dp/1855750007/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336512313&sr=1-1

I would be fascinated to see James's diary and hope you don't mind if I send a request with my email address. It would also be great if I could put you in touch with a friend and researcher called Johan Vanbeselaere who lives in Poelcapelle and is an expert on the tank battles in the Ypres Salient. He is always keen to hear from anyone connected with these battles, and may be able to share some more useful information with you.

All the best, John

Good to see so much interest.
Hopefully the diary will provide lots of insight into E Bn in the Salient.