Landships II

James H · Legend

I.D. This Mk V - and What's Going On?

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

As far as i know we have discussed thei earlier, but can't find the thread now.

James H · Legend

http://63528.activeboard.com/t47436364/getty-tank-photos-foster-testing-ground-cornell-university-m/

. . . but we never got to the bottom of it. That camo scheme is driving me mad. This sounds crazy, but it reminds me of one of the Russian Mk Vs.

-- Edited by James H on Sunday 13th of May 2012 10:40:06 AM

Lothianman · Colonel

There is at once an apparent problem as it seems the dating of the photo by the agency is 14 December and the Somme film was well out before then acc to the Times - reviewed in August 1927.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/the-crew-of-a-german-tank-surrendering-to-the-crew-of-a-news-photo/3285350

Picture library dating can be pretty ropy anyway so I wouldn;t be too sure about that December dating, to be honest. But that 14 December is temptingly precise (not like 1 December which is a common roundup I suspect).

And see the old thread mentioned earlier and this too - evidently exercising more than one forum at the moment.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?23800-WW1-Tanks-in-the-Twenties&p=316546

But December isn't any more convincing for a public event!!

It is possible the A7V footage got cut from the finished Somme film but the dating for that film is nominally out and the chap in the link above says there is a colour scheme discrepancy on the Mark V.

I wonder if the A7V scene was filmed with a different Mark V in Dorset proper, at Lulworth or Bovington? For a different film? Which still leaves the issue open.

-- Edited by Lothianman on Sunday 13th of May 2012 10:43:52 PM

Lothianman · Colonel

And in re TCT's General Strike tank ... I wonder if this is a confusion on the part of the original author with Glasgow� 1919 - where heavy tanks that had just been there for Tank Bank fundraising were sent in, and some mediums sent up from Bovington, when the Gmt of the day panicked about red revolution on Clydeside?

However the Times makes it clear we had V and allegedly V*s running around in 1926-8 anyway, so that particular issue can be resolved anyway.

-- Edited by Lothianman on Sunday 13th of May 2012 10:47:35 PM

TinCanTadpole · Legend

That's not crazy unless you're suggesting that the Russians were shooting a film in Dorset in 1927 with one of their own tanks shipped all the way from the USSR.

It does look a bit like Russian camo, and assuming the 1927 date is correct, has me wondering when Britain first started applying two tone camo schemes to vehicles - I'd have thought not until about 1940, and even then only on some vehicles (Excellent was of course camo'd in two tones in 1940).

Perhaps the tank in question had prior acting experience in one of those 1916 Flers re-enactment films that were made, and thus had been painted to vaguely represent the Solomon scheme?

Gwyn Evans · Legend

The British were using two tone camouflage long before 1940. It was in use during the Mechanised Force exercises in 1926.

Gwyn

TinCanTadpole · Legend

That's interesting, Gwyn. Is it possible then that the tank was not painted to try to evoke the Solomon scheme for film, but given the latest camo as it hadn't been pensioned off? Books and online sources often say (or suggest) that Mark tanks were pulled from use by about the early twenties, yet I remember seeing a newspaper article a couple of years or so back which mentioned the 1926 General Strike and I think had a photo of a Mark tank (presumably a V - I don't recall) which it said was sent along.

Lothianman · Colonel

I'm almost certain, from the feel of it, it is either a film - but surely not the Somme with an A7V - or perhaps more probably part of a Tank Corps public display? Complete with 'enemy tank' to shoot up and crew to surrender - you know the usual jolly slapstick pantomime. And can anyone spot what vehicle, if any, is the basis for the mock A7V?

I have had a quick and fairly cursory search in the archive of The Times up to 1930 or so but can't find anything that quite fits.

There is a reference to a Mark V apparently in use as part of the demo at Camberley for the "Colonial" and Dominions Prime Ministers on 13 Nov 1926 (Times 15 Nov).

The Times for March 21 1928 has a report of the special show put on for King Amanullah and his Queen from Afghanistan at Lulworth which mentions targets including enemy tanks and the splendid mobility of an old Mark V* (yes, they put FIVE STAR in the paper). Whether this is the same Mark V misidentified or a possibly earlier event remans to be seen.

I am not convinced by either two - it seems too pantomimish for a serious political event and seems more likely to be a public open day - but this is one line to follow up if anyone has access to a set of photos of either event.

TinCanTadpole · Legend

James H wrote:
�The caption on Getty Images says the photo was taken in Dorset, which suggests a connection with the 1927 film The Somme, but there's no menton of an A7V in the synopsis we found. Any ideas?
-- Edited by James H on Saturday 12th of May 2012 03:18:33 PM

�Have just checked imdb and they say The Somme, 1927, was filmed on Salisbury Plain, which Wikipedia tells me is partly in Wiltshire with a bit in Hampshire. My knowledge of English geography is limited, but assuming they're right the pic can't be from an event in Dorset.

Also, a film clip on Wikipedia showing an FT then Mks IV and V is described as using some Mark tank footage from The Somme�and does not appear to show any camo scheme like this; it looks more like normal single tone camo, with 1918 stripes in place.

Conclusion: it's a different film, or as lothianman suggests, some sort of 'do'.

TinCanTadpole · Legend

I'd wondered about it being the 1919 strike - I think the pic was credited as Glasgow.

As for the date, if the pic was taken on 14 Dec 1927 and the Somme film was released in the UK in August '27, then indeed that rules out that film. Incidentally, IMDB says it was released in Canada in December '27, but not until late November 1928 in the US!

I don't know anything about Lulworth; my hunch is that if it's Dorset in the twenties and there's a shiny looking Mk V with semaphore gear intact, it's probably around Bovington. Dunno if that stirs any ideas for anyone.

James H · Legend

Mike - you're a genius.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/german-tank-crew-surrenders-to-british-troops-in-a-scene-news-photo/3354851

What a piece of teamwork. The 1927 caption sent us the wrong way.

-- Edited by James H on Monday 14th of May 2012 02:19:49 PM

Lothianman · Colonel

That's a good point, as Lulworth (coastal part of Dorset) didn't come into use as a range till some time into the 1920s. Patrick Wright's book 'The village that died for England' (or similar title) tells the story. Useful cross check against mooted date if we find that Lulworth is ever mooted as the film setting, but Bovington would seem more sensible.

Does anyone have easy access to the Dorset or Poole local newspapers for mid-December 1927?

James H · Legend

Thanks for the brainstorming. Thoughts in no particular order:

It says here that The Somme was shot in Wiltshire, which, presumably, means Salisbury Plain. Since there's no mention of a German tank in the synopsis of the film, and the dates don't tally, I suspect we can rule it out. I can't find any reference to this replica A7V in Max H, Rainer S, or Jochen V. The mention of Dorset would seem to imply Bovington, so, yes, perhaps some sort of reconstruction, maybe for filming or perhaps just a display for the public, but quite some time after the War. A tiny point, but even the unditching beam seems to be painted in camo colours.

The local paper idea is brill. I shall have a delve.

Lothianman · Colonel

There is one other possibility/variant - that it was an official documentary film about the Army/Tank Corps. Dating could be any time after 1918 ... so my antennae pricked up when I noticed that the Ministry of Information film 'Victory' was made at Bovington in 1942, using old vehicles from the collection.

http://www.south-central-media.co.uk/chrono_list.htm

I had noticed that the same phtoographer E. Bacon did a photo of a mock German pillbox (looks pretty British) in a film being made in Dorset in December 1943 - 3285352 on the Getty Hulton archive. so very close in numbering to the mystery photo.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/german-pillbox-under-fire-from-a-british-tank-in-a-scene-news-photo/3285352

But dating still not right! And on further examination the catalogue numbering doesn't seem to be very chronological anyway. Not unusual in computer cataloguing a large and poorly sorted collection.

See this also ... synopsis of the 1927 film but no mention of the A7V.

http://landships.activeboard.com/t47439379/criticalpast-film-update/

Lothianman · Colonel

Basically, yes, to TCT's question - there are two photos of the same event with wildly different datings on the Hulton Getty database. And one is captioned so convincingly as to suggest that it is the correct one, as a WW2 propaganda effort ('stunt' is perhaps too informal for the work they probably put into it while waiting for the Second Front).

Thea question of which tank it was would also raise the matter of how far, if at all, the Mark V was 'refreshed' for the film - whether in paintwork (which is, perhaps deliberately, not to 1940s standards, at least in terms of the pattern, which is far too vertical and tiger-stripy) or in terms of fiddly bits like the semaphore. And whether te traces are�visible on the same machine, if it survives today.

-- Edited by Lothianman on Monday 14th of May 2012 08:50:39 PM

TinCanTadpole · Legend

Well 9199 has neither semaphore nor radiator intake mudguards, but that's not to say that they weren't removed at some point - I've just been looking at a list of tanks Bov has, and the blurb at the beginning says that only some of the first tanks in the collection have survived; so a couple of missing pieces from one of those that did is neither here nor there.

9199 certainly has unditching rails in place, and also the narrower 20.5in tracks, like the tank in the photo.

If it's not 9199, then Bov must have had another Mk V in good shape during WW2 - but if it did, it's news to me. Is anyone else aware of other Mk Vs surviving at Bovington circa 1942?

As for the film, are you sure the title is correct? The British Film Institute database has a seven page filmography for the Ministry of Information, but I saw no film simply titled "Victory" for any year.

-- Edited by TinCanTadpole on Monday 14th of May 2012 09:34:50 PM

Lothianman · Colonel

I endeavour to give satisfaction ... But seriously I am impressed - I had been trying to find just such a photo on the Getty site and completely missed it!

I can't think how ... ah, just realised, I searched for 'tank' and 'E. Bacon' (which throws up a couple of other interesting images, like a presentation tank being shipped to the USA). But the photo you found doesn't have the photographer recorded even though it is obviously from the same series!! Moral - always try several lines when dealing with photo libraries. I don't know if it is a generic problem but I've noticed e.g. on scran.ac.uk that ex-newspaper photo library images seem to have some very shaky dating and not just attributable to the date of processing/library receipt of the image (always a problem anyway).

Now for someone to find a copy of the film ...

It does explain very nicely why that A7V looks so much better than your average pantomime tank for an open day. Do we have any idea what its chassis was?

James H · Legend

Lothianman wrote:
Now for someone to find a copy of the film ...

I've made a start, but no joy so far.

What with this and MCFC's triumph, it has been a satisfying weekend.

TinCanTadpole · Legend

Do I understand correctly then if I say that the photo has been dated wrongly and it's actually a WW2 propaganda stunt? If so and it's shot at Bov, that would presumably give us 9199 as the ID, unless they had any other Mk Vs floating around - which I think unlikely as 9199 escaped the chop by being used as a tow vehicle or some such device.

PS - glad to hear you're a City fan, James

Not much into football myself, but Maldonado's win in F1 was good yesterday.

Lothianman · Colonel

The Victory title is convincing - it is attested by both the Dorset filmography I cite earlier and the Hulton Getty caption and as the one has a different date from the other (so is not copied over) I think we can assume that they are independently sourced from the original activity. It's possible that both could stem from the plans as expressed during the actual filming, and that the film title was changed for issue (or the film never appeared, despite the filmography).

The other thing that I wonder about is that we've seen hardly any other stills from the film in books - there seem very few but by contrast there are plenty of stills of Desert Victory for instance (those Pz.Kpfw IIIs in fact in British Light Stone and with British markings). But perhaps this one wasn't considered to be plausible or cogent enough. It would hardly convey the ultra-modernity of the British armoured forces, never mind the Panzer Divisions.

And found anothe rphoto too when trying to see if there was any film on the Getty website -

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/german-gun-and-its-crew-being-put-out-of-action-by-a-news-photo/3355279

James H · Legend

This appears to be heading towards a very satisfactory conclusion. AFAICT it must be 9199, in yet another camo scheme. It must have been repainted more times than a Golf GTI in Liverpool.

Lothianman · Colonel

I've been asking around some more - without conclusive success as yet, though I have yet to hear from one major database.

A specialist film historian (whom I don't want to name without his permission) made the point to me that the 1940s film could have used 1920s footage - and he indeeed felt the pics had a 1920s feel. On rechecking the phoot library images it is certainly possible to interpret the associated data as having been taken by two different photographers in thbe 1920s and 1940s (assuming there are no errors in the captioning, which is a fairly big assumption).

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/the-crew-of-a-german-tank-surrendering-to-the-crew-of-a-news-photo/3285350

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/german-tank-crew-surrenders-to-british-troops-in-a-scene-news-photo/3354851

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/german-gun-and-its-crew-being-put-out-of-action-by-a-news-photo/3355279

I'd be interested to know if anyone with more knowledge than me can spot internal evidence in the photos (e.g. uniforms showing 1940s features but supposedly taken in 1920s) which refutes this hypothesis - which would, I note, also require a mock A7V to be left lying around at Bovington for 15-20 years. Another implication is that the Mark V had much the same two-tone scheme from c 1925 to c 1945 - which is another line of attack.

The other possibility is that the footage of at least the bit with the Mark V was all taken in the 1920s but some stills were released in the 1940s as PR stuff for a new film which used that footage (and which still remains untraced).

If I can get to the bottom of this i will write it up and publish a note somewhere sensible!

-- Edited by Lothianman on Wednesday 6th of June 2012 10:36:31 AM

TinCanTadpole · Legend

I can't imagine uniforms would have 40s features, as army uniforms changed dramatically with the new battledress introduced in 1938 - you'd just have to use the old style of uniform and not try to palm off the 'current' style as period. Will take a look nonetheless.

Edit�- haha, just looked at the pics and there's not much to tell uniform-wise with those greatcoats on!

On a better note, the rifles look like SMLEs, rather than WW2 Rifle No4.

I know HMLS Excellent was refurbished in 1940, but I have doubts about a Mk V being in such shiny condition after the 20s.

-- Edited by TinCanTadpole on Wednesday 6th of June 2012 06:46:43 PM

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

This is the previous post that had the photo

http://landships.activeboard.com/t47436364/getty-tank-photos-foster-testing-ground-cornell-university-m/