Landships II

wayne · Colonel

RE: Cardmodel 1/72 St.Chamond progress

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour Wayne,

I think that your are good now ! But I have not worked again on it

I Know that my contact in Saumur has done some mistakes and wrong measures. . . . .

I send you by Email some good drawings of M2 Hull.

Michel

wayne · Colonel

Tanker,

Thanks!� I will go ahead, then.

wayne · Colonel

The corrected M2/M3 is ready for beta fit-up.� I am attaching some side views and isometrics of the 3D model.� I have not yet made assembly drawings for the corrected model.

wayne · Colonel

Charlie,

The corrected cardmodel St.Chamond M1 (Tanker's designation for the first series model) as "Teddy", "Fantomas" and a white model are attached.� Please replace the ones I put up a few months ago.� The correctons include the bow plates and MG positions per Tanker's comments.� I also revised the suspension units.

I noticed on a photo of "Fantomas" a dark diamond symbol above the "A31S" on the sides.� Black and red would both show as dark on B/W photos.� I tried black and it just didn't show up very well, so I changed it to red.

There are also pix of "Teddy", "Fantomas" beta-builds.� The two betas do not have the MG's mounted, but are otherwise complete.� I left them off for now because my wife knocks them about pretty badly when she moves them out of her way.

The third pic is of the first parts fit-up test of the M2/M3 hull after the corrrections.� This was more complicated than the M1.� Everything fits OK with a few minor changes.� I am now merging the corrected parts into the original colored model.

CharlieC · Legend

�

The revised St Chamond models are on Landships II now.

Regards,

Charlie

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonsoir Wayne,

"I noticed on a photo of "Fantomas" a dark diamond symbol above the "A31S" on the sides."

And diamond in dark was the good color for this tank !

There is no military french documents from the war, speaking of aces in colors for schneider, Saint Chamond and Renault FT units.
The ordre was to put aces in square, circle or triangle. It was done for Renault FT units and some of the last Schneider units (like AS14, AS 16, AS 17)
which used also square, circle or triangle.

Aces in color were used on French tanks after the first world war . . . .

During first world war, aces were in black or in white on Schneider and Saint Chamond and, without tank photos in color for this war,
it's very difficult to say if some Battery used red for their aces . . .
The name "fantomas" was also, perhaps in black. . . .

Aces was not done to be observed at a long range, but only seen by the others tanks of the Battery or by soldiers fignting around the tanks.

Inside most of the St Chamond's Groups, aces, painted on tanks were all in white.
For some Groups like AS 31, all the aces were black (excepted for some tanks of this Group in summer 1918).

Of course, red is nice on a tank model, but . . . . . it's not the historical reality . . . .

Bon d�coupage et collage - Michel

-- Edited by Tanker on Sunday 30th of December 2012 12:26:00 AM

wayne · Colonel

Tanker,

Your point is well taken.� I'll change the diamonds to black.

I attach two screenshots from the M2/M3 models.� One is of M3#706, which has reinforced side armor joins.� The second one is a solid gray (no camo or markings) with un-reinforced armor plate joins.

I see that the Polish book on Schneider and St.Chamond,�and�Zaloga's Osprey book on French WW1 tanks, both have images of M3#706.� The two images are very different, and show different interpretations of the same black-and-white photos.� I based the original model of 706 on the Polish book illustration.� This one is a bit loosely based on Zaloga.�

I used the drawings of the M3 driver's cupola that you sent.� I will check the new #706 soon�for parts-fit and camouflage matching.

I am looking for a subject for�a char supply.� There is a side view of #426.� It appears to be in a line-up with Schneider CA1's.� It appears to be camouflaged with large patches.� Have you any better possible subjects?

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour Wayne,

Good idea for the Saint Chamond caisson !

The resupply and recovery St Chamond were used for all tank units (.

Photo from St Chamond cassion n� 62426, was taken in Champlieu's camp�during parad from 1917 (14 July).

This tank was from SRR 102 (Section de Ravitaillement et de R�paration).

In summer 1918, these SRR (102 to 108) were called SRD (Section de Ravitaillement et de D�pannage).

SRR pennant (50 x 40 cm) was white and blue, and by order from G�n�ral Estienne blue color on tank's pennant was only used by SRR.

I send you, by mail,�some photos from Saint Chamond caisson.

�

After that, you ought to work on Schneider M1 and M2� . . . . . !

Bonne journ�e - Michel

�

wayne · Colonel

Tanker,

I have seen photos of St. Chamond caissons without the vertical deflector plates on the bow, and some that still have them.� Were some of the older M1�vehicles dis-armed and converted to caissons?

SRR 102 to 108 = 7 SRR sections.� Total of 48 vehicles 6�sections of 7 each and 1�section of 6, or 7 sections of 6 each plus 6 replacements?

Was the SRR pennant�a cloth banner?.� If yes, how was it displayed on the vehicle?� 50�x 40cm, blue and white -�horizontal bands or vertical, and where was the blue band?��

Did the SRR's use tactical markings like the AS's?

I made the Schneider CA1's a few years ago - I called them early and late models, not M1 and M2.� They are also available on the Landships II Models page.�

My next French vehicle is the FCM 1A.� I just received the�Histoire et Collections�issue that has very nice coverage, with a few line drawings.

I started a spreadsheet of St. Chamond information�-�vehicle number, hull type (M1/M2/M3/caisson), m12 or m1897 gun, reinforced armor plate joins, groupment, group, battery, commander and fate.

Regards - Wayne

�

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonsoir Wayne,

"Incomplete" ! Yes, and my own list, from the 400 St Chamond, is not complete too !

"Rambouillet" is a tank from AS 34 Group. (AsP1 n� 62495). And it is a white spade on this tank, because all aces of this Group are white.

Inside AS 34 :

�� "Cyclope" is a St Chamond M1 (AsCo4 n� 62490) and also St Chamond M1 (AsP4 n� 62538)

�� "Goliath" is a St Chamond M1 (AsCa1n� 62512)

�� "S�n�gal" is a St Chamond M1 (AsCa1 n� 62513)

�� "Loup-Garou" is a St Chamond M1 (AsCa2 n� 62515)

�� "Satan" is�a St Chamond M1��(AsP2 n� 62526)

Batteries from "Le Butor" (St Chamond M1), "Le Poilu" (St Chamond M3) and "Lotty"�(St Chamond M3) are not identified.

�

Most of�the St Chamond�don't worn a name, and all the names used are not known. . . .

�

For models, it's interresting to choice tanks with complete and beautiful markings. "Pas Kamerad" from AS 38, is one of the best for me !

Mibella is from groupe AS 31 "Les P�licans".

The "Pelicans" was the name of all the Group AS 31, like the "Caimans" was the name of AS 38.

�

I just remenber that all St Chamond M2 (official name) go to the fight after modification of the cuppola.

I only used "M3 name" to�distinguish on photos tanks M2 before and after modifications.

It's case for n� 62706. Some photos ot this tank, taken in Cercottes, are with and without tank commander cuppola.

�

And you forgot "Fleur d'Amour" ' St Chamond M3 n� 62770 from Aberdeen, now in France since 1985.

�

Perhaps, one day, a complet list for the St Chamond

Bonne soir�e and Happy new year - Michel

-- Edited by Tanker on Monday 31st of December 2012 07:11:13 PM

wayne · Colonel

Tanker,

The incomplete St.Chamond spreadsheet in pdf format�is attached.� I noted only one reference, an internet image number; I suspect I need to document all the references.

Regards - Wayne

wayne · Colonel

Charlie,

on Tanker's advice I changed the tactical markings on "Fantomas from red to black, and the revised model ia attached.

Also attached are the M2 #706 (62706), based on the color images of it in the Osprey French WW1 armor book by Zaloga.� The earlier version was based on the color images in the Polish book (Lawrynowicz).� The Zaloga versions seems more in keeping with the general French camo philosophy as well as we can know it w/o color pix.� The pic (0683) of an assembled model is this one.

There is also a white model of the M2/M3.� There are parts to make the M2 and the M3, with the M12 or the M1897 main gun.

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour Wayne,

"I have seen photos of St. Chamond caissons without the vertical deflector plates on the bow, and some that still have them."�
Yes, and for that reason it's, perhaps, possible to think that some M1 battle tank have been transformed in recovery tank,
to take place of some recovery tank of the original batch.
It was only an hypothesis, and there is no French military document speaking of that.

"The front plate is not visible in the one photo we have, so I elected to delete the deflector plates."�
It's the good solution.

"The MG apertures are visible."�
Yes, but�I think that these tanks were unarmed. The cement plates were cut up in factory with machine-gun place
and it was probably easier to used, for recovery tanks, the plates cut up for all battle tanks

"Were some of the older M1 vehicles dis-armed and converted to caissons ?"
Not for me. It was only the 48 St Chamond M1 selected in factory to be used like recovery tank.
The 8 St Chamond M2 send in Champlieu's camp as tank recovery were return to factory and transformed in battle tank.

"There seem to be three small riveted plates near the MG - patched battle damage ?"�
No, pilot production model. You found it on prototype St Chamond model.

I did not add them."
Of course ! I Agree.

"SRR 102 to 108 = 7 SRR sections.�
Total of 48 vehicles 6 sections of 7 each and 1 section of 6, or 7 sections of 6 each plus 6 replacements ?"

It was very different from end 1916 to end 1918. St Chamond caisson were some times in three examples in SRR

and some times in two examples in St Chamond Group.

Some St Chamond caisson were also in AS camps from Champlieu, Mailly Martigny and Cercottes.

"Was the SRR pennant a cloth banner ?"
Like for Groups and Battery, it was � cloth banner.
This banner was on Group Commander tank, or on Battery Commander tank during the Battle,
but only for parad for the SRR.

"If yes, how was it displayed on the vehicle ?"�
On front cuppola, or on rear and only for parad.

"I don't see a good way to represent this in the cardmodel."
and it's not necessary.

"50 x 40cm, blue and white - horizontal bands or vertical, and where was the blue band?"�
White cross in the middle and blue on the corners.
It was only instruction from General Estienne, and photo from the parad is the only one.

"Did the SRR's use tactical markings like the AS's?"

No

"My next French vehicle is the FCM 1A."�

Good, but what model of this prototyp ?
�� 1 -� model 30 tonnes,� 6,40 m long� and 75 mm short gun
�� 2 -� model 45 tonnes,� 7 m long and 75 mm
�� 3 -� model 64 tonnes,� 9,40m long (pilot study from FCM 2C)

Model from 40/42 tons, presented to General Estienne and AS comity, in December 1917, was like model 2 :
�� long�� : 8, 55 m
�� large�� : 2,842 m
�� high (under turret)�� :1,980 m
�� high (with turret)�� : 2,785 m
�� high (with cupola turret)�� : 3 m��
�� tracks pad width�� : 0,60 m��
Plans and photos known, are those from, at least two different models (with square and round cupola)
��
"I just received the Histoire et Collections issue that has very nice coverage, with a few line drawings."
Yes and plans from SHD (carton n� 16N2130) was those of a different model . . . . . .
The factory done different models of plans and it is difficult to see what is the good plans.
Photos of the FCM 1A, taken in 501� RCC don't give all side of the tank.

"I started a spreadsheet of St. Chamond information - vehicle number, hull type (M1/M2/M3/caisson), m12 or m1897 gun,
reinforced armor plate joins, groupment, group, battery, commander and fate."

Me too . . . . and I don't found time to work on it . . . .

Bonne journ�e - Michel

-- Edited by Tanker on Sunday 6th of January 2013 10:12:59 AM

wayne · Colonel

Tanker -

A screen shot of the char caisson #426 (62426) ia attached.� The front plate is not visible in the one photo we have, so I elected to delete the deflector plates.� The MG apertures are visible.� There seem to be three small riveted plates near the MG - patched battle damage?� I did not add them.

I added the full vehicle number on the left bottom bow plate and the left bottom rear plate.

The SRR pennant, white cross on a dark (blue?) field, appears to have been�displayed above�the right front turrelle.� I don't see a good way to represent this in the cardmodel.

Eric · Colonel

Very interesting topic. Lot of useful information.

Thank you.

wayne · Colonel

Tanker,

Char Caisson - I deleted the MG's and 75mm, but included the parts for the MG mounts - the left one is visible in the photo.

FCM 1A - I have not yet selected which model to make.� Which one is shown here:?

http://wwimodeller.co.nz/new-135-char-lourd-fcm-1a-from-blitz/

Wasn't there a model with a very short 15cm howitzer?

TinCanTadpole · Legend

Wayne, you may be thinking of the FCM 2C Bis for the 15cm howitzer? That was a 1930s experimental modification of one of the ten 2Cs.

wayne · Colonel

I am now back home and have my references to hand.� The calibre was 10.5cm not 15cm.� There is a better photo in Osprey, page 41, and several photos in GBM98.

CharlieC · Legend

�

The updated St Chamond M1 "Fantomas", St Chamond M3 "706" and the white model St Chamond M2/M3 are on

Landships II now.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

There is a build thread of the late model St Chamond at http://uamf.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=227&t=5549&start=30 and http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/armory/23193-landships-info-st-chamond-1-72-a.html.

Regards,

Charlie

Renault25V6Turbo · Corporal

Hello,

this is a very interesting thread about the creation of a very nice model. Thank you wayne, that you made the effort and all the others, especially Michel, for the support and the lot of valuable information they are also available here.

Best regards

Andi