Landships II

James H · Legend

Mk V in 1942, England.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Could be. I've just checked the WD number for the Matilda, which seems to be T10284. This is the first tank in a contract awarded to the Vulcan Foundry, but two odd things - the list describes it as a "Matilda IM" and secondly there's no civilian registration given for this or for any AFV with a WD number higher than T8119. Matildas with the BEF seem to have had civilian registrations so I suspect this is one built during wartime after the abandonment of the parallel civilian registration system for British military vehicles.

Need to watch the video again.

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Saturday 21st of July 2012 07:33:57 PM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I think you're right. And I've just been given this film on a DVD for my birthday!

Gwyn

Lothianman · Colonel

This may bear on the problem we have elsewhere, of the filming of a rhomboid and a replica A7V (and vice versa) ,supposedly in a film of much the same date:

http://landships.activeboard.com/t49126412/id-this-mk-v-and-whats-going-on/

I am still waiting to hear from a certain body, but one thing that has become clear is that the matter is complicated by the possibility that the Mark V could have been filmed with the A7V replica in (say) the 1920s and the footage (re)used later in the 1940s, i.e there was no actual filming of a Mark V in the 1940s.

This last is plainly not the case here as we have a WW2 era tank in the same shot as a rhomboid. However, the rhomboid looks very different from the other film. Is it the same tank? Does the different colour scheme mean that it was filmed in a different decade from the other films?

I am not sure how to interpret the lack of sponsons - I wondered if they were removed to allow transport to the filming venue and patched up temporarily, but that doesn't make sense for a Mark V does it?? And the sliding doors in the film are far too good a job for that. Perhaps they picked a Supply tank or workshop runabout to be easier to transport.

Mike

Gwyn Evans · Legend

This'll help.� The tank is in fact 9199, the Mark V now at Bovington.�The film itself is dated August 1942 and I'm inclined to believe this.� There is some stock footage in it - Mark I and Char 2C - but the appearance of a Matilda II with the Mark V�shows this footage dates from the late 1930s up to 1942 (date of the film).

BTW this is the only film from the DVD I've watched and if the rest are of this quality it's highly recommended - "British Tanks at War: Five Wartime Films 1941 - 1942" Imperial War Museum.�

Gwyn

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Just noticed that it's an early A12 Matilda - a Mark I with the armoured Vickers machine gun. I thought all of these were with the BEF and were lost in the Fall of France in 1940 - anyone confirm or deny this? I notice that 9199 was used in a publicity stunt in March 1938 when it demolished a cottage on the Bovington range and wondered whether the film could date from then, but I think not. According to David Fletcher's "Great Tank Scandal", "Only a couple of examples of the Infantry Tank Mark II [aka A12 Matilda] had been issued when war was declared...".

Gwyn

Rob · Legend

A tank zips behind the Mk V before it fades out to a shot of two Covenanter Tanks. If it's not the same A13 that drives by earlier I think it could be a Covenanter which would date it post-Dunkirk, as from Wikipedia, "The first deliveries of production vehicles were not until after the battle of Dunkirk"

Gwyn Evans · Legend

...and having done so, it's an A13 behind the Mk V, not an A13 Mk III (i.e. a Covenanter). (Why is British WW2 tank nomenclature so awkward?!)

Gwyn

TinCanTadpole · Legend

Thanks for posting this, James - there's all manner of interesting machines in that clip, including Mk I male, Mk I/II female, and FCM 2C; I must say though, that the footage of a Crusader at speed is what most caught my eye.
It makes perfect sense for the sponsons and unditching rails to have been removed when 9199 was acting as tow tank during WW2, but I for one had never thought of it before seeing these pics.
As for Rob's two Covenanters, the one on the left of the screen is a Covenanter, but the one on the right is a Crusader (I presume the footage just after the Matilda crosses the screen in front of the Mk V is the bit referred to).

Lothianman · Colonel

Just that I don't want to give his name without permission! I'd been�hoping to write this film thing up properly but briefly, and publish it somewhere if we can ever get to the bottom of it, with documented sources - but it seems to be getting more and more complex.

But this does add a little more weight to the 1920s filming theory - assuming those are one and the same Mark V?

�

Mike

-- Edited by Lothianman on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 05:03:52 PM

-- Edited by Lothianman on Tuesday 24th of July 2012 05:04:59 PM

James H · Legend

Very interested to observe the path this is taking. Also intrigued as to the identity of Mike's mysterious source. 9199 does seem to be worth a book all of her own. Remarkable that events surrounding the dummy A7V episode are proving so hard to pin down; I should have thought it would be famous in these circles.

Awaiting developments.

James H · Legend

Another piece of the jigsaw, from D. Fletcher's New Vanguard Mark V Tank:

"In March 1938 a Mk V retained in working order at Bovington was used to demolish a cottage as a publicity stunt. The tank's number, 9199, was now prefixed by the letter T for tank, and the vehicle also carried a civil registration number, ME9827, applied front and back. The tank also appears to have been painted green, as were most British tanks of the time. Since it was no longer required as a fighting tank, and in order to reduce the weight and width, the sponsons were removed and the apertures plated over.

T9199 was added to The Tank Museum's collection in 1949."

Doesn't clear anything up, but I thought I'd throw it into the mix. If 9199 was green in 1938, she must have acquired the blue/green/black camo after that. Does any of this help us place the footage of the A7V replica?

Lothianman · Colonel

Many thanks James. This does shift the balance a little bit towards a 1920s rather than 1940s filming with the A7V, on the principle that the tank in the film (a) had sponsons and (b) was two tone stripy, so (c) was probably filmed at some time pre 1938. I suppose it is remotely possible that the sponsons were replaced and the paint scheme put back on ca 1941-2 for filming with the A7V. But if the same tank is filmed monochrome and sans sponsons with Covenanters that makes that less probable, as does the general point that they had better things to do.

There is a possible argument that the sponsons were put back on ca 1940 for anti invasion defences, but it seems unlikely if the thing was still driving around still sans sponsons by the time they had Matildas and Covenanters.

I'm still waiting to hear from someone but once I have I'll check through all the suggestions once again and try once more.