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Post Info TOPIC: French assault formations
Albert


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French assault formations
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I know that there were some elite assault formations in the French army, called "grenadiers d'elite" or "groups franc". However almost nothing about them can be found in books (at least those I know) or in the Internet. Is this because they were less numerous than German and Austro-Hungarian Sturmtruppen o Italian Arditi and they were not so widely used?



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Excelsior1


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Not heard of them, and certainly found no reference anywhere. The French army placed an emphasis on ordinary- and rifle grenadiers in the assault, and they had "lance fusils": grenade launchers, that were converted model 1874 Gras rifles, as well. Maybe the units you mention used such weapons?

Vauviller (Nos Poilus de 1914-1918) describes new weapons introduced during the war, including hand grenades, Stokes mortars, the Chauchat light MG, the Brandt model 1916 pneumatic cannon, 37mm gun and rifle grenades, but makes no mention of any specific grenadier assault units. But that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Perhaps they were an experimental unit? I'd be very interested to know what you turn up.

Good luck.



-- Edited by Excelsior1 on Friday 28th of September 2012 09:03:05 PM

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Albert


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Excelsior1 wrote:

Not heard of them, and certainly found no reference anywhere. The French army placed an emphasis on ordinary- and rifle grenadiers in the assault, and they had "lance fusils": grenade launchers, that were converted model 1874 Gras rifles, as well. Maybe the units you mention used such weapons?

Vauviller (Nos Poilus de 1914-1918) describes new weapons introduced during the war, including hand grenades, Stokes mortars, the Chauchat light MG, the Brandt model 1916 pneumatic cannon, 37mm gun and rifle grenades, but makes no mention of any specific grenadier assault units. But that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Perhaps they were an experimental unit? I'd be very interested to know what you turn up.

Good luck.



-- Edited by Excelsior1 on Friday 28th of September 2012 09:03:05 PM

 

Thank you for the reply smile This is the only topic on those mysterious formations that I was able to find: http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/forum-pages-histoire/composition-groupe-grenadiers-sujet_10783_1.htm 



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Tanker


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Bonsoir,

The soldiers working with French tanks, during the first world war, was not called "grenadier d'élite" but "fantassin d'élite".

The best informations on these soldiers (and their mission) is given inside 262° Infantry Regiment's JMO (Journal de Marche et Opérations).

Sorry, but this document is in French !

You can found this JMO on Internet in "Mémoire des Hommes"

JMO 262° RI - 17 Mai 1917 au 21 Mars 1918.

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/jmo/img-viewer/26_N_731_010/viewer.html

2° Bataillon du 262° RI (see page 9 to 16)

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/jmo/img-viewer/26_N_731_011/viewer.html

During 1917 and at the beginning of 1918, some differents Infantry Regiment were used by the "Artillerie Spéciale" like "Infanterie d'Elite" (154° RI - 17° BCP - 9° Cuir à pied - 56° BCP)

After March 1918, 3 Independant Batallions from 262° Regiment were used by tank units to help tanks before, during and after the attack.

Three of these soldiers was attached to each tank. They only used French mousqueton (and not Lebel rifle) and don't wore bag during the attack.

They were the eyes and "little hands" from the tanks.

Bonne lecture - Michel



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Albert


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Thank you very much, Michel, this is completely new for me!

Do you know something about elite assault troops fighting on their own (without tank support)? Is "grenadiers d'elite" a correct term to name them? Why is there almost nothing about them (I don't know of even single article) comparing to numerous books on Sturmtruppen or Arditi? French literature on the Great War is very rich, you have many great magazines, including two focused only on WW1 (well, at least I know of two: "14-18" and "Tranchees"), while I don't know any similar magazines in other countries, but this subject is neglected. Maybe they were ad hoc units and were rarely used?



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Tanker


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Bonjour,

"Do you know something about elite assault troops fighting on their own (without tank support) ? "

If, speaking of "elite assault troops" you think "Infantry d'élite" fighting with French Tanks, during WW1, these units were only engaged with these tank units.

They were only there to help and support tanks.

"Is "grenadiers d'elite" a correct term to name them? "

Inside 262° Infantry Regiment's JMO, the soldiers, fighting with tanks, are only named as "soldat".

"Infanterie d'Elite" and "Fantassin d'Elite" was also used in other Infantry Regiments, speaking of soldiers fighting in localized swift attacks.

During WW1, French Head-Quarter choiced to have very good soldiers in many units, rather than some units with only very good soldiers.

Why is there almost nothing about them (I don't know of even single article) comparing to numerous books on Sturmtruppen or Arditi ?

Because these Units were not "assault troops" like Stosstruppe or Arditi and just support troops for tanks.

French literature on the Great War is very rich, you have many great magazines, including two focused only on WW1,

while I don't know any similar magazines in other countries, but this subject is neglected.

Probably because, military documents are in French . . . .

May be they were ad hoc units and were rarely used ?

Yes, they were, and they only faught when tanks were fighting.

You have, inside 2nd Battalion's JMO, details on these fights with tanks units.

JMO from 1/ and 2/262° Battalion dont exist and you have other details of their fight in many parts of military tanks reports . . . . in S.H.D. from Vincennes.

Très bonne journée - Michel



-- Edited by Tanker on Monday 1st of October 2012 09:43:34 AM

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Albert


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Michel, thank you very much for this interesting information smile

 

Tanker wrote:

French literature on the Great War is very rich, you have many great magazines, including two focused only on WW1,

while I don't know any similar magazines in other countries, but this subject is neglected.

Probably because, military documents are in French . . . .

 

But I tried to find something about them in those French magazines and even there I didn't find any article regarding this subject. Maybe there is somemething in French books on WW1 tanks (like La guerre des chars 1916-1918, Les chars francais au combat 1917-1918, Les Chars de la Victoire or Chars et blindes francais and in regimental histories, but I don't have these books. Maybe in the near future I'll search for this information smile



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Excelsior1


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So the French had the first "panzergrenadiers" then?

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Tanker


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Bonsoir,

Not exactly, French "Infanterie d'Elite" used by the " Artillerie Spéciale" was, first, Supply Unit for tanks and not an assault troop.

A plus - michel



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