Landships II

R Simmie · Lieutenant

HMLS Campania

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Well, this is completely new to me at least. A Mark I Male, that much is clear, but I have no knowledge of a tank of that name. Thanks for posting - very interesting.

Gwyn

Rob · Legend

A very apt name of the era too

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

A new one for me, as well - thanks for posting. Note the horseshoe on the cab, which was seen on a number of C Company tanks at Flers-Courcelette. The tank is still in Solomon camo, with no track extenders, probably dating the photo to 1916 (late 1916 to judge by the landscape and clothing). There's no sign of�the grenade roof which was carried by most of the C Company tanks, with the exception of the No.1 Section that attacked the Courcelette Sugar Factory. The names of the six tanks of the No.1 Section do not, however,�include Campania. Did the museum post any further info with the photo?�

firsttankcrews · Major

Nor me, nor heard her name, which is why I am so interested.
The soldier standing on the cab roof appears to be wearing a leather jerkin, as well as leather shin protectors.
The latter were commonly worn by member of the MMGS who served in the first tank crews.

-- Edited by firsttankcrews on Saturday 20th of October 2012 03:15:54 PM

firsttankcrews · Major

This is very interesting.
She looks almost totally intact - although the starboard gun may have been removed.
Can you give me more details about the museum., I would liek to be able to contact them about this photo's provenance.

Stephen

Tank · Major

Never seen it before any one got any info,

James H · Legend

http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/1703723/photograph-tank-private-john-lord-france-world-war-i-1916-1917?createComment=True#commentform

firsttankcrews · Major

You're a star
Albert is exactly where she should have been

I will share with the tank enthusiasts on the Great War Forum
They may be able to shed more light.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Thanks for the link. There are a few other photos of interest in this collection that I've not seen before.

Gwyn

R Simmie · Lieutenant

Sorry I have been away for the weekend.
A big thankyou to James H for providing the link to the photo...I would be struggling to find it again.

On a similar topic I have a Bendigo Advertiser article from 1990 based on a Sgt. Robert Rodgers diary from his time in the AIF in the Great War.
His entries for November 27 to December 3rd 1916 mentions he saw a tank called "HMLS Campaignia". Shortly after he inspected 2 others called
"HMLS Delphine" and "HMLS Glen Ruthers". The journalist writing up the article says Delphine was a female and Glen Ruthers a male although I don't know if Sgt. Rodgers
mentions that. Interesting that "HMLS Campaignia" may be "HMLS Campania" but spelt differently by Rodgers. Also "HMLS Glen Ruthers" does not match a C or D company name...possibly confused "HMLS Clan Ruthven"?

regards,

Richard Simmie

-- Edited by R Simmie on Monday 22nd of October 2012 07:56:04 AM

Lothianman · Colonel

Most interesting new find.

Just a thought about the 1990 press article. I wondered how�the average journalist would even know that tanks came in two (OK, three) genders, especially pre-Wikipedia (?), and in particular�that one particular tank was a girl and the other a boy? This last must presumably have been from the original diary, unless I am missing something.

-- Edited by Lothianman on Monday 22nd of October 2012 09:41:03 AM

-- Edited by Lothianman on Monday 22nd of October 2012 09:41:32 AM

firsttankcrews · Major

Delphine was one of the two tanks which attached the eastern edge High Wood on 15 Sep 16. I have assumed that she was crewed by D21 commanded by Alex Sharp. She was certainly stuck until the end of the war.
The other was probably Clan Ruthven,a male tank which was also in action at High Wood that day. She was stick there until 1945.

R Simmie · Lieutenant

Thanks Stephan,
I had been going through my books to confirm where I had seen "Clan Ruthven" and it was on the firsttankcrews site! I'm not up on Scottish clans but is not Ruthven a town/area in Scotland rather than a clan...I ask because Simmie's in Australia all came from there in the 1850/60s and named their farms/houses "Ruthven" or "Meuthven".

Also I'm interested where the names were painted on these derelict machines. I'm assuming on the front as per "HMLS Campania". "Clan Ruthven" name may have been badly

worn or obscured, making Rodgers indentification a bit of a guess at the time.

R Simmie

-- Edited by R Simmie on Wednesday 24th of October 2012 07:41:44 AM

CharlieC · Legend

�

Clan Ruthven is a clan -�http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Ruthven. The Scottish pronunciation of "Ruthven" is approximately "Rivven".

In Scots culture "the Ruthven" is the clan chief - it doesn't take much for non-Scots to think it's a place.�

Regards,

Charlie

firsttankcrews · Major

Pictures of the C and D Company tanks, taken in September, show no names either on the front (glacis plate) or sides, although the crew numbers (e.g D15 or C6) are clearly visible. The picture of "We're all in it" shows the tanks name on the side but this was taken in October.

I am puzzled by HMLS Campagnia's location. She doesn;t look damaged and I wonder if the photo was taken behind Britiish lines

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

I've wondered about the location as well, Stephen. Australian troops returned to the Somme in the latter part of October 1916, to relieve Fourth Army troops holding the trenches north of Flers and Gueudecourt. At this time, tank operations on the Fourth Army front had nearly ceased. (A group of 3 tanks from D Co. remained at Green Dump near Longueval.) C.E.W Bean, in the A.O.H., comments that the first tanks seen by Australians were the wrecks near High Wood, which were viewed during their march from Montauban to Flers. I suspect that by the time Sgt. Rodgers viewed HMLS Campania, the tank was a derelict. The photograph seems to show some damage to the cab roof. The extreme desolation of the background in the photo suggests that the tank is abandoned on�a Somme battlefield, but where? No evidence of a grenade roof is seen on or near the wreck, suggesting that the tank did not belong to Sections 2. 3 and 4 of C Co., which saw action near Combles and Morval on Sept. 15 and 25. It might be one of the C Co. tanks which attacked Thiepval on Sept. 26, but these wrecks were some distance from High Wood. Were any C Co. tanks, other than Clan Ruthven, in action near High Wood?

Note what appears to be small patches of snow in the foreground of the photo, which probably date the�image to winter 1916-17.

Alpha Six · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello to all!

Some more pictures from same album:

HMLS Campania (or Compania?), C17, No 746 with remains ОСТОРОЖНО ПЕТРОГРАД inscription.

Later 746 was pictured as supply tank at Arras in 1917

This pictures from http://rcforum.ru/showthread.php?t=2177&page=245

-- Edited by Alpha Six on Tuesday 12th of January 2016 12:05:26 AM

PDA · Legend

Thanks Denis.

I found mention of HMLS Campania in "the diary of Sergt. Barwick, A.A. C. Coy 1st Battalion on 23 February 1917: '...went up & had a look at the Tank they had just fetched along, you would be surprised to see where these monsters can go, this one came down a steep slippery hill, crossed a muddy gulley & climbed the opposite side taking all the old trenches & holes in her track, the name of this Tank by a curious co-incidence was "H.M.L.S Campania". (Mitchell Library collection) - See more at: http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/sr/trove/record/169064926

And here also, "It has been printed that the tanks were called 'Willies.' We ourselves never used the name. At first they were known as landships, and H.M.L.S. Campania comes to mind. In those days all the tanks were named. There were Explorer and Explosive, for instance; and when the Germans came to use tanks we found that they had named theirs, too; far one of the first German tank-commanders called his tank Elfreda, probably after his sweetheart." http://jfredmacdonald.com/worldwarone1914-1918/science-18gwith-tanks-part1.html

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

ОСТОРОЖНО ПЕТРОГРАД - CAUTION PETROGRAD
One of those water tanks for Russia?

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Thanks for posting these photos Alpha Six. C17 (No. 3 Section, C Coy. HSMGC), under the command of Lt. Clarke, supported the Guards Div. attack towards Morval on Sept. 15, 1916. The tanks on this front were ordered to return to the railhead at the Loop (south of Fricourt) on Sept. 28, and it is listed as being present there on Oct.1. I suspect that it may have spent the winter in this area, and was photographed by Sgt. Lord in this locality. A number of the other photos in his collection were taken not far from the Loop while the ANZAC Corps spent the winter of 1916/17 on the Somme. What appeared to be damage to the cab roof in the initial photo in the thread, now looks more like the remnants of the grenade roof piled on top of the tank. I'm still a bit doubtful about the exact location, since the isolated setting seen in the photos would seem incompatible with a busy railhead.

firsttankcrews · Major

This is superb news
Thanks for sharing.
I will try to update my book to reflect this new information

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Excellent photos - thanks for posting here Denis.

Previously I had located some photos of 746 in the same location that were taken in a snowstorm. Some show the 6 pdrs salvaged from it, and one gun shield damaged. I'd say these pictures were taken at the end of its life as a Male and just before it was converted to a supply tank.

Gwyn

Rob · Legend

These are amazing, thanks for sharing them

MK1 Nut · Hero

Brilliant reference photos! Having the same tank photographed from several different angles is about as good as it gets for determining period detail from later or museum created alterations.

Helen x

Alpha Six · Lieutenant-Colonel

Thank you all for your research. And special thanks to John Lord, for his collection of photographs. All of these photos you can see in his album
collections.museumvictoria.com.au/search

-- Edited by Alpha Six on Thursday 14th of January 2016 09:14:44 PM

MK1 Nut · Hero

Thanks! It's a great find, already seen a few photos of MK1s new to me.

Possible Grey MK1 Female

Nice top View of MK1 Male

Alpha Six · Lieutenant-Colonel

MK1 Nut wrote:
Possible Grey MK1 Female
Nice top View of MK1 Male

My apologize )))

I did not post these photos in the subject of the Campania. And then I forget about them. Excuse me.

However, another photo of the tank with the Петроград had been published in a book by Richard Pullen. In this photo it scratching by German POWs.

MK1 Nut · Hero

Nothing to apologies about Denis, my confusion not yours. I need to sleep more and get a lot less exited about some photos of a Tank! :)

Helen x

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

The female tank is probably one of two which were "loaned" from B Coy. to A Coy. and knocked out by shellfire on 23/10/16 while laying up on the Albert-Bapaume road, between the Windmill and the Courcelette Sugar Factory. There is a photo in "Tanks on the Somme" of the wrecks being broken up.

The Male tank appears be the wreck of 701, just west of the Windmill, again on the Bapaume road.