Landships II

 

The gun certainly is a 75mm Krupp or Japanese licence built Type 38. 

I have my doubts whether the 75mm Krupp gun was made in 1912 since it has the early narrow gun shield and has a foresight (right side of the receiver) for an arc

sight. The later model guns didn't have the foresight since they used the Goertz panoramic gun sight - even though most of the early guns were retrofitted with the

Goertz sight they kept the foresight. The only way to be certain is to look at the breech markings.

The wheels are much smaller diameter than the standard 1.3m and the lower part of the gun shield is folded up which seeems to make the gun look smaller. The

gun at the right is a better candidate for a 1912 build date since it has the gun shield introduced in the Model 1905/6 guns.

Regards,

Charlie

 

I agree - definitely a Krupp 75mm.

The gun closest to camera is a Model 1905 or later - the breech is similar to the 7.7cm FK 96 n.A (the first attached image is a Model 1909 gun).

The gun with the smaller wheels could be an earlier model since I can't see the breech actuating lever so it could be an early breech (the second image is

a Model 1903 gun).

There seems to be a manufacturer's plate on the side of the trail of the gun with the small wheels.  The markings on the breech rings or the top of the

breeches probably would tell us where and when the guns were manufactured.

Thanks for the Type 41 Cavalry Gun plan - there isn't much information around about this gun.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 12th of November 2012 09:57:21 AM

The Selstrom-Nordelfelt (Vickers) was different from the French Model 1897-In fact the Selstrom-Nordenfelt was fitted to the Argetine Krupp 7,5cm L.24 mod. 1895, 7,5cm L.28 mo.1898 field guns, and the Krupp 7,5cm L.13 mod. 1898 mountain guns by Krupp-Vickers requested 9,000 pounds, of which Krupp paid 5,000, and he Argentine Government the rest..A word about the 1898 L.28s, they were fitted with a shield and hydraulic reoil mechanisms and designated Mod. 1905,used until the mod. 1909s arrived, then placed in reserve. One of these, modified to fire the Mod. 1909 shell was converted into an A.A. gun at the Esteban de Luca Arsenal in 1927

The first Krupps were 10 7,5cm L.13 mountain guns acquired from private merchants by the Argentine Army in 1865,and used during the Paraguayan War (1865-1870)  The various 7,5cm L.13 utilized by Argentina, Bolivia and Peru (guns supplied by the Argentine gov't in both cases) Chile, Brazil  were essentially the same in terms of shell, max. range, etc. Paraguay acquired 6 7,5cm L.13 (with shield) in 1907, and Chile an ndetermined number as the Mo.1914..

As far as the Chilean Krupp 7,5cm L.30 is concerned: 30 bateries (180 guns) were acquired.

Cheers!

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Tuesday 13th of November 2012 03:04:24 PM

 

Do you know how many 75mm Krupp guns Chile received?

 

The breech on the Argentine guns looks very much like the Krupp patent for an interrupted screw breech - US Patent number: 621581 patented Mar 21 1899

Use google patent search for the details. I don't know what the Sellstrom-Nordenfelt breech looked like but if it's anything like the breech on the French Mle 1897 gun

it's a very different design.

Regards,

Charlie

 

I've just received some information from Herr Herbert Jäger on deliveries of 75mm Krupp guns prior to WW1.

Chile - received 152 guns - 120 in 1910 and 32 in 1912 - both batches were noted as 7.5cm FK L/30.

China - received two types of guns:

7.5cm L/29 (schwer) - 1909: 60;  1912: 72;  total 132

7.5cm L/30 - 1904: 36;  1905: 8; 1906: 19;  1911: 5; total 68

Guatemala didn't recieve any 75mm guns from Krupp.

This data is sourced from a copy of Krupp's delivery book

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 13th of November 2012 11:34:35 PM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 13th of November 2012 11:35:32 PM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 13th of November 2012 11:36:02 PM

Brunner88 wrote:

---

... P.S. how do I post photos in this forum?

---

For pictures on your PC? Use the "Advanced Editor" - that is

• "Reply" button or
• "Quote" button or
• "Advanced Editor" button from "Quick Reply"

- then, when ready, use the "Attach File(s)" button on the edit page and follow the directions, "Browse" to the image location, etc..  That process uploads image (or document) file(s) to the forum.

Anything located (hosted on-line) elsewhere, you can use "img tags" as mentioned in http://www.activeboard.com/misc/howto.spark?aBID=63528.  Those images remain at the remote location (and generally fade from human ken over a period of years) but you may be able to use larger sizes and higher resolutions in the image as displayed within the topic.  There's also an "Insert/edit image" icon (a picture of a tree) in the toolbar above the edit box that may be used - haven't tried that one myself but the dialog box it pulls up looks straight-forward enough.

There's a different interface with those new-fangled mobile thingys that I haven't explored but which other members do use (judging by their 'orrible formatting) and they can no doubt advise accordingly.

Searching this forum will regurgitate other explanations/directions from earlier topics (several of them specific to this matter) which may be helpful if still struggling.

Steve

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Wednesday 14th of November 2012 06:32:09 AM

 

I don't think there's an inconsistency in the Chilean 1910 delivery - many armies used 6 gun batteries of light field guns before WW1 so 20 batteries = 120 guns.

I can't comment on the 1912 delivery whether it was 10.5cm howitzers or 7.5cm guns - no independent information.

I know Herr Jaeger got his data from a copy of Krupp's delivery book - this covers 1879? - 1911 plus 1912 in handwritten form. It's one of the few Krupp documents

to survive. 

Taki (Takihome) believes that some Type 38 guns were sold to Ecuador but didn't know when. The number 24 I picked up on the Axishistory forum.

I don't know anything about the Chilean M1891 Mountain Gun - the markings could be on the breech ring, top of the breech or the rear of the barrel - Krupp inscribed

export guns according to the client's wishes so there isn't a standard place. I'd guess there isn't a model number on the gun just a build date.

I'd really like to get detailed images of the Chilean 75mm - many of these guns had ciphers cast into the barrels - no idea what the Chilean cipher would look like.

Similarly with the surviving Brazilian 75mm at Rio de Janiero.

Regards,

Charlie 

Hello,

Thank you so much for Krupp field guns' delivery to China! This matches quite well with the Chinese source in my hand. My source stated that the first batch of 72 Krupp field and mountain guns were delivered in 1905(maybe the year is wrong), and it is possible that this batch was 36 field guns + 36 mountain guns. The later orders of Krupp L/30 field guns were probably conducted by regional armed forces.

In 1907 the (Imperial)Chinese Army Department held a competative test of L/28, L/29, L/30 and L/31 field guns produced by Krupp and Schneider in Changxindian(a town in today's Hebei Province) which lasted for 4 weeks. Eventually the Krupp L/29 7.5cm field guns were found to be the best(lighter while still have enough power). Then they were selected as the standard type.

So it's possible that the two Krupp guns in Chinese Military Museum can be seen as the representatives of the two different types of guns used by Imperial Chinese Army... Those people who picked weapons for the military museum in 1950s did have sharp eyes.

Here comes more information on China's attempt to copy Krupp 7.5cm export field guns(I'm quite free today!)

Chinese 7.5cm L/29 field guns were only produced in Hanyang arsenal(= Hubei arsenal), never produced in Kiangnan - they specialized in producing mountain guns. I don have a book which mentioned that Kiangnan was also "succeeded in building 7.5cm L/29 field gun in 1913", but I think they didn't go into mass production.

The China's production of 7.5cm L/29 field guns started in 1913(the 2nd year of Republic) - so now I doubt if the name "Type 10" really makes sense, some sources only refer to these guns as "Hanyang-Krupp 7.5cm L/29 field gun". Accroding to a document dating from March 1913, the production rate at that time in Hanyang was four field guns per month.

The Chinese "transportable" 7.5cm field guns did exist. Accroding to a report on Hanyang Arsenal in 1918, by that time six prototypes had been made. The barrel could be broke down into two parts and the whole gun could be carried on horseback "just like mountain guns". However the producing process of this gun was far more complex than that of regular field guns, so maybe they didn't went into mass production. They were probably one of the strangest varieties of Krupp field guns ever produced, unfortunately no photos of them are avilable now. The same report also says that in 1918 one or two 7.5cm field guns can be made per month, lack of material was the reason for the slow production rate.

Another document dating from 1914 stated that the weight of Chinese 7.5cm L/29 field gun was 967.5kg - that is 25.5kg heavier than German guns purchased by China accroding to that document.

Also, copies of Japanese Type 38 field guns were built in Shenyang Arsenal from 1924 onwards. I remember seeing a book which says a little more than 100(can't remember exactly) were made before the Manchurian Incident in 1931.

 

I had an email from Taki about the numbers of Type 38 and Type 38 Kai guns produced:

<Quote>

"I have got a new book about Japanese artillery. According to this book, about 500 pieces of Type 38-improved were newly produced and the

total number of Type 38 is 2,559 pieces. Until this book, the new production of Type 38-improved has not been known."

<Endquote>

That makes a lot more sense out of the Type 38 production since there are surviving guns with serial numbers >2000 and the number

of surviving Type 38 guns seems too high if 400 were reworked as Type 38 Kai and about 280 sold to China and Peru.

Regards,

Charlie 

 

There's a story around about 108 75mm guns from a Brazilian order being seized by the German Army at Krupp's works at the start

of WW1. Looks like it might have to be revised. There is a surviving 75mm Krupp gun in Brazil at Forte de Copacabana in Rio de Janeiro

which has a build date of 1913, it's serial #27 (attached). The form of the breech ring markings is identical to a Turkish gun captured in Palestine

and now at Murundi, NSW with serial #64. The lowest serial no. of the surviving Turkish/Brazilian guns in Australia is #34. The image was taken by

Nuyt of the Overvalwagen forum.

Any ideas on what really happened to the Brazilian guns?

Regards,

Charlie

Any interest in this one?

http://lifeasdaddy.typepad.com/lifeasdaddy/2009/01/krupp-guns-of-the-boer-war.html

CharlieC wrote:

---

It looks to me that it would be better as two articles:

1. An overview of the Krupp gun, the armies it served with and the modifications made by different countries to the standard  Krupp gun.

2. An article on the evolution of the standard gun from M1902 to M1911.

I think this will satisfy both the artillery buffs and modelers.

(...)Comments?

---

 

Excellent news!

The first part sounds like a table would be a good format for it, while the second clearly should be written as text. That way, you could combine both elements without making the whole thing too awkward.

My two cents only. Regards, Pat

This post on a Spanish forum says seven of the mod 1907 guns from Paraguay went to the Spanish republic and equipped their 31 division in 1937.
http://forohistoria.creatuforo.com/artillera-utilizada-durante-la-guerra-civil-espaola-tema643.html
(scroll down to bottom)

This page lists the same seven, plus three other of unknown type - or a dozend of the model 1906, depending on which author you trust (sources are listed). It also says the Republic had 122 Krupp Ansaldo 75/27 mm. M1906.

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Armas/Artilleria/ArtLinea/ArtLinea.htm

Unsure which Krupp models are in these pictures of Franco's 1938 San Sebastian Kursaal show of weapons captured from the Republican troops:

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Armas/Kursaal/Kursaal.htm

-- Edited by Pat on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 05:32:25 PM

-- Edited by Pat on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 05:47:24 PM

CharlieC wrote:

---

 

Nothing like a bit of research.....

The barrels on the Dutch 75mms were heavily engraved with a motto and royal cipher of Queen Wilhelmina. As well as the 204 guns received from Krupp the Dutch State Arsenal

also built 100 guns.

The Dutch 75mm guns were rebuilt starting in 1926 to increase the max. elevation. The company that rebuilt the guns was HiH (Hollandsche Industirn Handelmaatschappij)

(later HiH Siderius) which is an interesting story in itself. Under the Versailles Treaty Germany was forbidden to have armament manufacturers. Rheinmetall relocated to Holland

buying out HiH and remained in Holland until the 1930 when it sold the majority holding to the Dutch Siderius company . The HiH rebuild of the Krupp 75mms resulted in a gun

which looked very much like an 7.7cm FK 16 with a short barrel. Notable was the relocation

of the trunnions to the rear of the gun and the trail was opened out to permit the gun to recoil safely at high elevations. With a modified shell the 7-veld had a max. range of

10,000m. Some 280 guns were rebuilt by HiH.

The story of HiH and HiH Siderius is documented at: http://www.overvalwagen.com/HIHSiderius.html

A further modification to permit the modified 7-veld gun to be loaded onto the tray of a truck was to make the rear section of the trail foldable. It's not known when this modification

was made.

 

Regards,

Charlie

---

 Hi Charlie, some updates on my research there (from my manuscript on Dutch artillery manufacturing):

Dutch Army in 1914 had 204 75mm Krupps and this remained so.

During the war the AI and Werkspoor - with crucial Bofors parts like barrels - made another 10 pieces and they converted 18 similar casemate guns into field guns, all in agreement with Krupp, but without their direct help.

Immediately after WW1 the AI converted 12 field guns again into AA guns, so the total of Krupp field guns was 204 Krupp+16 local=220. In 1926 and later HIH converted 165 of those pieces and the AI the remaining 55 (after HIH design).

In 1932 the total of 7 Velds, as they were called now, had risen by 25 to 245, but I have no details about any orders. Plans were made to increase the number to 320. That year AI received an order for 12 pieces plus parts for another 24. Total = 281 of which 204 original Krupps.

In 1936 another 8 were produced, bringing the total at 289, but on Jan 1 1939 there were 310 pieces in stock (no details of in between orders).

In 1940 another 20 were made and 8 of these were more or less ready by the time of the German invasion. The remaining 12 were completed by the AI under German management.

Note production by AI always made use of local subcontractors, like Werkspoor and Demka. I think Demka steelworks managed to make the barrels for these guns only in the late 1930s, so earlier batches must still have used Bofors barrels (there is no hint of this in Bofors literature).

Before WW1 also KNIL had ordered  the Krupp 75mm gun, but this was a slightly diffferent type and it had gunner seats attached to the shield. I have never seen the order, but it may have been in the area of 60 pieces. In 1919 Bofors delivered a further 12 pieces after Krupp licence. There were between 72-84 pieces 75mm L30 in KNIL service by 1942. Note these orders were through the Dutch Colonial Ministry, no the Defense or War Ministries. KNIL had their own independent procurement dept. In the late 1930s AI converted 15 of the KNIL pieces for higher elevation shooting, using their own designed boxtrail.

By the way, the Dutch 7 Veld served with Italian units in Greece and the Balkans during WW2 and several pieces remain in that area. The Greek Army used them in the Greek Civil War in the late 1940s. The high elevation must have give it a good performance in mountainous territories.

Thanks! Part of the guns may also have been used as coastal artillery in Italy (islands) and SE Europe.

As for the Belgian Krupp guns, I suggest that you read :

Artillerie légère de campagne de l'Armée belge, 1900-1940 by Colonel Lothaire.

available from www.editionsdupatrimoine.be

gemsco