Landships II

CharlieC · Legend

75mm Krupp Export guns

CharlieC · Legend

�

Looking at the surviving guns - there are a majority of the original Type 38 guns. My next contribution is on the Type 38 Kai - there were 400 of these produced - most of

them were converted from the original guns. This gives a 4:1 ratio of original to modified guns. A quick and probably unrepresentative sample is at:�http://warmemorials.us/listing-007-artillery.html (guns in Wisconsin) - of the 5 Type 38s documented only one is Type 38 Kai.

�

Regards,

Charlie�

-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 26th of October 2012 10:28:53 AM

CharlieC · Legend

�

Taki (http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/) says the total production was 400.

On another topic - I think I've found an anomalous Type 38. I was looking for Type 38 images and came across the attached at�

http://warmemorials.us/artillery/type38_75mm_new_holstein.html. Looks like a Type 38 except it has an interrupted screw

breech. The breech mechanism reminds me of 75mm Type 41 Mountain Gun. I don't know whether this was a common variant.

Regards,

Charlie

Edit: data plate reads:

"Built in 1925

Osaka Arsenal"�

-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 26th of October 2012 02:46:56 PM

Pat · Commander in Chief

Super stuff, thanks everyone - MCP, private mail sent.

Pat · Commander in Chief

CharlieC wrote:
The Type 38 was used throughout the campaigns in Manchuria and China in the 1930s. It was supposed to be replaced with the 75mm Type 90 and Type 95 field guns but difficulties with the manufacture of these more modern guns meant the Type 38 remained in service in WW2. There are a large number of surviving Type 38 guns in the US.

�

This is a very interesting image because it seems to show an unmodified Type 38 model.

All publications I can access (like http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/IJA/HB/HB-9.html#III) agree that encountering a Type 38 gun in its original form in WW2 was very unlikely since most were updated to increase range.

�

Pat · Commander in Chief

Most interesting. Wikipedia and others say 400 of the improved type were produced but older guns were upgraded, so the total number of "improved" ones should be much higher than 400.

However clearly not all were updated. U. S. Department of the Army pamphlet no. 30-4-4 on Axis artillery says both the original type 38 and the improved version were in service with the Chinese Communist army at the time of writing, 1955.

CharlieC · Legend

�

Tha anomaly didn't last long - the gun is a Type 41 Cavalry Gun. Based on the Type 38 but lightened by 30kg with a shorter barrel and

interrupted screw breech.�

Calibre - 75mm

Barrel Length - 2195mm (L/29)

Elevation - -8 to +16.5 deg

Traverse - 7 deg

Shell weight - 6.41 kg

Muzzle velocity - 510 m/sec

Max. range - 8380m

Weight - 903 kg

(�http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/41c.htm )

The surviving gun is at New Holstein, Wisconsin.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

�

Type 38 Kai (Improved)

The deficiencies of the 75mm Krupp design were apparent to the Japanese and a modified gun was produced from 1926 to address the lack of barrel elevation

and the consequent lack of range.

In part this was done by the use of a new box trail, however, the Japanese went much further in updating the gun. The trunnions were moved rearwards which

means that the breech is in roughly the same position for loading regardless of barrel elevation. A pair of equilibrators was added to reduce the loads on the elevation gearing.

Some 400 Type 38 Kai were produced at the Osaka Arsenal - there is some contention whether these were new production or remanufactured Type 38s.

The gun looks only superficially like a standard 75mm Krupp - the images are of a fairly battered survivor at Cadott, WI - the gun shield is missing which means the changes

compared to the original gun can be more easily seen.�

Data from�http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/38-75.htm

Barrel length - 2325mm (L/31)

Elevation - -8 to 43 deg.

Weight - 1135 kg

Max. Range - 11500m

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 26th of October 2012 11:16:48 PM

CharlieC · Legend

�

A contribution from Taki:

China purchased 258 Type 38 guns in 1917-18.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

In 1905 Belgium ordered 348 75mm Model 1905 field guns from Krupp. Some of these guns were licence-built by Cockerill.

These guns appear to have been more similar to the Model 1903 gun rather than the Model 1905 supplied to the Japanese.�

The German Army captured significant numbers of the Belgian 75mm guns. It seems as if the guns�were put into storage,

except for a few used in an anti-tank role mounted on trucks in 1918. The Belgians appear�to have reclaimed the guns after WW1.�

During the 1920s the Belgian guns were modified to increase elevation and thus the max. range by inserting a hinge approximately

half way along the trail. It's unclear what modifications were required to the gun sights to operate with the barrel in an elevated

position. The 75mm guns were still in service at the start of WW2 in large numbers.

Data (from the plaque on one of the 75mms at Brussels)

Calibre - 75mm

Barrel Length - L/30

Max. Range - 9900m

Elevation - -7 to +15 deg

Traverse - 6.5 deg

Weight - 1050 kg

Shell Weight - 6.52 kg

Muzzle Velocity - 540 m/sec

Firing Rate - 6 - 12/min

Images of survivors are at the Brussels Army Museum

Regards,

Charlie�

-- Edited by CharlieC on Saturday 27th of October 2012 01:42:24 PM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Saturday 27th of October 2012 01:43:16 PM

CharlieC · Legend

�

i think we've picked off the "low hanging fruit" on this topic.

There's still a few countries that bought Krupp 75mm guns which haven't been discussed:

Chile - certainly bought Krupp guns, there are survivors which were used in military parades up until 2000

Uruguay - bought Model 1909 guns - no idea of the numbers or any survivors.

Paraguay - received 12 75mm Krupp guns from Brazil - not known if there are any survivors.

�

I added up the number of guns represented by the data so far - it's about 5,500 guns.

�

Regards,

Charlie

Ralph Lovett · General

In terms of German Krupp exported 7,5cm guns, I have a Krupp 7,5cm. Gebirg Kanone L/13 (Mountian Cannon) exported to Chile in 1891.� This same type also was exported to the Ottoman Empire and saw service in the German Colonies.

This is the link:

http://www.lovettartillery.com/7.5cm_Gebirg_Kanone_L_13.html

�

R/

Ralph Lovett

http://www.lovettartillery.com/index.html

�

MCP · Captain

I'm sure I have the data of the Chilean gun, but I'm not able to find it. As soon as I discover it, I'll publish the data.

Marco

MCP · Captain

According with Loebells Jahresberichte 1910, Uruguay bought 3 batteries of Krupp 75mm field guns.

In addition 24 Krupp field guns were bought by Spain in 1900, they were employed also during the Civil War: 8 were assigned to the Republican 3rd heavy rgt of Santander.

�

CharlieC · Legend

�

Found an image of a surviving Chilean 75mm. It looks like a fairly late model 75mm Krupp with strengthened breech and sliding wedge breech block.

Regards,

Charlie

MCP · Captain

Data of the Spanish 75mm M. 00

Calibre: 75mm L/30

Lenght of the barrel: 2250 mm

Barrel grooves: 28 - depth - 0.75 mm

Weight of the barrel: 400 kg

Weight of the carriage: 535 kg

Weight in action: 935 kg

Weigfht of the limber: 818 kg (empty: 520 kg)

Weight in marching order: 1753 kg

Shield thickness: no shield

Height of the line of fire: 920 mm

Lenght of the line of sight: 953.5 mm

Weight of the cartridge: 1.18 kg - charge: 520 g (shelled: 8.2 kg)

Weight of the shell: 6.5 kg�

Weight of the shrapnel: 6.5 kg

Muzzle velocity: 500 m/s

Max. range:�

Elevation: + 17� / - 10�

Height of the wheels: 1350 mm

Transport: drawn by 6 horses

Ammunition: limber - 38 rounds

Remarks: gun � tir acc�l�r� equipped with elastic spur brake, wedge breech mechanism, traverse on pivot.

-- Edited by MCP on Monday 29th of October 2012 08:59:26 AM

-- Edited by MCP on Monday 29th of October 2012 07:27:31 PM

MCP · Captain

Addition to the Dutch 75mm M. 03 gun

range: 6400 m with percussion fuze

�

Addition to Danish 75mm M. 02 gun

Barrel grooves: 28 - depth - 0.75 mm, wdth - 5.92 mm

Height of the line of fire: 990 mm

Height of the line of sight with the telescope: 1225 mm

Lenght of line of sight: 1000 mmm

Weight of the empty limber: 415 kg

Weight of the empty ammunition body: 500 kg

Height of wheels: 1340 mm

MCP · Captain

In 1909 Uruguay bought 12 - 75mm Krupp M. 09 field guns

Calibre: 75mm L/28

Lenght of the barrel: 2100 mm

Weight of the barrel: 310 kg

Weight of the shrapnel: 5.9 kg - 270 bullets

Muzzle velocity: 485 m/s

Elevation: + 17��

Traverse: 3� 30'

Transport: drawn by 6 horses

Remarks: wedge breech mechanism, traverse on pivot.

�

See: http://www.uruguaymilitaria.com/Foro/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=800&start=30

-- Edited by MCP on Monday 29th of October 2012 08:58:32 PM

Pat · Commander in Chief

CharlieC wrote:
�The Dutch did modify the 75mm between the wars but I have no idea what they did to them.

�

Lots of info on the Dutch use of these guns, focussing on 1940, is available here:

http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?page=75-mm-field-gun-7-veld

MCP · Captain

About Krupp guns bought by Argentina see:

http://www.militariarg.com/fieldheavy-artillery-horse-artillery-limbers-ammunition.html

There are a complete list of all Krupp (and non Krupp) argentinian guns with a grat number of photoes.

Very interesting!

Marco

28juni14 · Hero

Sketches

MCP · Captain

RE: 75mm Krupp Export guns

Pat · Commander in Chief

An Argentinian one in apparently pristine condition:
http://www.bronzecannons.net/krupp.html

Period images from Argentina:
http://www.militariarg.com/support-weapons.html

CharlieC · Legend

�

Nothing like a bit of research.....

The barrels on the Dutch 75mms were heavily engraved with a motto and royal cipher of Queen Wilhelmina. As well as the 204 guns received from Krupp the Dutch State Arsenal

also built 100 guns.

The Dutch 75mm guns were rebuilt starting in 1926 to increase the max. elevation. The company that rebuilt the guns was HiH (Hollandsche Industirn Handelmaatschappij)

(later HiH Siderius) which is an interesting�story in itself. Under the Versailles Treaty Germany was forbidden to have armament manufacturers. Rheinmetall relocated to Holland

buying out HiH and remained in�Holland until the 1930 when it sold the majority holding to the Dutch Siderius company . The HiH rebuild of the Krupp 75mms resulted in a gun

which looked very much like an 7.7cm FK 16 with a short barrel. Notable was the relocation

of the trunnions to the rear of the gun and the trail was opened out to permit the gun to recoil safely at high elevations. With a modified shell the 7-veld had a max. range of

10,000m. Some 280 guns were rebuilt by HiH.

The story of HiH and HiH Siderius is documented at:�http://www.overvalwagen.com/HIHSiderius.html

A further modification to permit the modified 7-veld gun to be loaded onto the tray of a truck was to make the rear section of the trail foldable. It's not known when this modification

was made.

�

Regards,

Charlie

Pat · Commander in Chief

Hopefully this swarm effort will find the final word on the question in which numbers the Japanese model 38 guns in their orginal form were employed in WW2.� The following 112 pages volume leads to the conclusion: They were few.

The "Japanese Field Artillery" volume of the U. S. Military Intelligence Division, published in October, 1944, is available online.

It portraits quite a lot of Japanese guns, but while it details the improved model 38 (including five images) it doesn't do so for the original model 38. It also says: "Until the Model 95 75-mm gun was found on Saipan, the only 75-mm pieces that forces have encountered on a large-scale have been the improved Model 38 and the Model 94 mountain gun." (p. 29)

It gives around 1915 as a starting date for the model 38 improvement programm and says elsewhere: "During World War I the Japanese made major modifications in the construction of the Model 38 (1905) 75-mm gun. The piece was trunnioned forward and equilibrators were added to compensate for muzzle heaviness. The plain box trail was modified into an open box. This allowed for an elevation of 43�. Axle traverse was retained, thus limiting the effectiveness of this piece as an antitank weapon. The hydrospring recoil mechanism also remained, but was made variable to permit firing at high elevations. Although the Japanese have produced far more modern 75-mm guns in the Models 90 and 95, there is little evidence that the Improved Model 38 has been generally replaced as the standard light division artillery piece."

"From 1915 to 1930 large-scale field artillery production was apparently confined to the Model 4, the improved Model 38, and the Model 41 (1908) mountain gun." (p. 27)

Data given:

"GENERAL Weapon: 75-mm gun, Model 38 (1905) improved.

General Characteristics: A modification of one of the 1905 series of Japanese guns providing it with greater flexibility.

Identification:

1. Modified boxtrail.
2. Long cradle flush with muzzle of piece.
3. Marking on breech face.

Organization to Whicn Issued: Division artillery.

FIRING CHARACTERISTICS

Length of Tube-...... .........--.. 7 ft. 6 in. 31 calibers.
Muzzle Velocity .....-HE Shell 1,640f /s.
Pointed Shell 1,977.8 f /s. Maximum Range ......-HE Shell 8,938 yards.
Pointed Shell 13,080 yards. Elevation -....---43�.
Depression ..--...-8 .
Traverse ...-.... -------------3 30' right, 3 30' left
Rate of Fire:
2 minutes .. ......... 15 rpm.
15 minutes-........----------4 rpm. Continuous.. -....-------100-120rph.

Ammunition-... ---------HE, APHE, shrapnel, pointed, incendiary, smoke, illuminating.
Type of Breechblock ..... -....---.... Horizontal sliding wedge.
Type of Firing Mechanism ..................... Continuous pull percussion (Krupp type).

CONSTRUCTION AND MOVEMENT DATA

Weight of Gun: Firing----2,501.5 lb. Traveling ---4,207.4 lb.
Over-all Length: Firing-....-.-17 ft. Traveling ... ..----29 ft. 4 in.
Width:
Track.-...-------------------4 ft. 6 in.
Maximum.-..------------------5 ft. 2 in.
Height--..--------------4 ft. 10 in.
Road Clearance ........---------------.1 ft. 4 in.
Method of Transport ..-....---------------Horse-drawn-six horses.
Practical Speed on Good Roads .... 24.8 miles per day.
Time to Emplace...-.---------------.----2 minutes.
Type of Traverse ...-.. ...----------------Axle.
Type of Equilibrator...-.--..... Spring.
Type of Brakes -..---------------------..--Hand friction brake (ordinary wagon brake).
Wheels and Tires ...............---.----------Wood spoked artillery wheels; steel band.
Trail ..--- ----------------------Modified box adjustable spade.
Recoil System:
Standard.-.-------------------19.5-48.8 in.
Maximum .-......------------------48.8 in.
Type of Recoil System -...-----------------Hydrospring automatically variable.
Quantity Fluid Recoil Cylinder ....-... 4.7 qt."

�

The original model 38 makes an appearance in the chapter about "Obsolete or Obsolescent Equipment": "Certain Japanese artillery weapons, first standardized in 1905, are probably no longer in general use among frontline units. These pieces, the Model 38 series, were manufactured in four calibers-75-mm, 105-mm, 120-mm, and 150-mm. (...) Although their ranges appear to be inadequate for use against a modern army, these pieces were still being employed by the Japanese in China only a few years ago."

CharlieC · Legend

�

There are a number of Type 38 field guns captured in PNG, Bougainville and Borneo during WW2 in Australia. Most of them are the original 1905 Type 38.

I think the wartime US intelligence report's comments on deployment represented an opinion or based on an unrepresentative sample.

I'd also make the point that the Japanese referred to the reworked gun as "Type 38 Kai" - the term "Kai" apparently doesn't translate very well

into English - it's usually rendered as "modified" or "improved". It's probably easier to just call the gun Type 38 Kai.

I'm starting to make some progress, with lots of help, translating Japanese gun markings - strange language.

�

I think the swarm has been pretty successful on the Krupp 75mm. I guess I should start to pull it all together in an article - it's going to be big.

�

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

I have been in two minds about adding this gun but I guess it was a rebuilt Krupp 75mm

In 1939 Turkey produced perhaps 200 75mm L/35 guns which appear to have used some components from the pre-WW1 75mm Krupp guns.

The origins of the gun design are obscure. In the 20s and 30s there was a relationship between the "Dutch" firm HiH and its successor HiH Siderius and

Turkey. HiH had proposed a further update of the Dutch 7-veld design with an L/35 barrel. There is no available documentation but the 1939 Turkish

design looks very much like the HiH Siderius design. HiH Siderius went bankrupt in 1934 so would have had no direct role in the Turkish design.

I've never seen any performance data for the Turkish gun but it probably was similar to the FK 16 n.A with a max. range of about 12,000m.

The 75mm Turkish guns served into the 1950s.

First image is an HiH drawing �and the rest from a surviving gun in Turkey. The two cylinders projecting out below the breech appear to be equilibrators.

Regards,

Charlie�

CharlieC · Legend

�

Anyone know what the motto on the Dutch 75mm barrels means?

Regards,

Charlie

Pat · Commander in Chief

CharlieC wrote:
�
Anyone know what the motto on the Dutch 75mm barrels means?

�

Den vaderland getrouwe
blijf ik tot in den dood

Loyal�to�the�fatherland�
I�will�remain�until�I�die

From the national anthem, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelmus.

Pat · Commander in Chief

CharlieC wrote:

I think the swarm has been pretty successful on the Krupp 75mm. I guess I should start to pull it all together in an article - it's going to be big.
�

�

It would be great if it could include a spotter's guide to the different versions (like model 1903, 1905, etc.), much like your reply to my question in the earlier thread how to tell a 77mm n. A. from the 75mm guns.

28juin14 posted a very instructive sketch of the gunshield variants yesterday.

It is that kind of extra info that modellers and wargamers need, so including it would broaden the potential readership. Regards, Pat

kkfj1 · Major

Hello,
I must say I love this post very much! After all, they were the main gun of Chinese artillery for almost 50 years...
Few people know that China also produced its own copy of Krupp 7.5cm export field gun in early 1920s, although in modest numbers. We Chinese call them "Type 10".
The most interesting things I read about Chinese-made Krupp 7.5cm field guns is that a few of them had barrels that can be screwed down to 2 (or 3, cant remember) parts in order to be easily transported in mountainous areas in China. I wonder if similar designs were used in other countries.

More datas and photos will come this weekend!

CharlieC · Legend

I think I knew about the locally produced 75mm Krupp guns - nice to know their designation - Type 10.

Is the "10" similar to the Japanese system? - 10 - number of years after the founding of the Chinese republic in 1911.

The Chinese seem to have acquired imported Krupp made guns, Type 38 guns from the Japanese, Italian 75/27 Mod 06

and more Type 38 guns after WW2.

I haven't heard of anyone trying to produce the 75mm guns with sectionable barrels - even the mountain guns

seem to have had a single barrel.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

�

Have we run out of info?

I've seen a reference that Guatemala bought 75mm Krupp guns but I've never seen any details - anyone help?

Regards,

Charlie

Pat · Commander in Chief

The only reference I have seen so far about a self-propelled version:

http://fdra.blogspot.de/2010/10/ejercito-argentino-los-m-59-en-servicio.html

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/argentina/argentina.html

I don't know which one was first and what is the original source.

A second image here:

http://www.militariarg.com/tractortruck-prime-mover-vehicles-wheeled-artillery.html

Argentinian forces, M9 halftracks. Whether the guns are truly Krupp model 1909 (or Krupp at all) I cannot tell. Regards, Pat

CharlieC · Legend

�

The gun fitted to Argentine M9 half-track definitely looks like a 75mm Krupp gun. If I've read the text correctly the Krupp gun was replaced

by the 75mm Bofors M40 in artillery units possibly in the 1940s.

Regards,

Charlie

kkfj1 · Major

Hello,

For unknown reason it's very slow and uneasy for me to post images on my computer, so I can only upload one photo that I think is the most interesting.

Take a look at this gun in Chinese Military Museum in Beijing. It is said to be a German Krupp 7.5cm field gun made in 1912. However, it can be easily seen that this gun looks much lighter than a regular Krupp export field gun, and has smaller wheels(you can compare it to the gun on the right - this is a "normal" German Krupp export gun). And it's definitely not a Japanese Type 41.

Can anyone tell me what gun is it??

P.S. This gun has a sliding breech block.

-- Edited by kkfj1 on Sunday 11th of November 2012 03:42:49 AM

Pat · Commander in Chief

CharlieC wrote:
�
Taki (http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/) says the total production was 400.

�

I took the liberty to ask about this on the Missing Lynx Japanese Modelling forum. There was one reply: Taki himself confirmed his position: "400 were not new built, but converted from original Type 38. So, 400 are included in 2,000 of original Type 38."

Pat · Commander in Chief

CharlieC wrote:
The German Army captured significant numbers of the Belgian 75mm guns. It seems as if the guns�were put into storage,
except for a few used in an anti-tank role mounted on trucks in 1918.

It would be interesting to know whether any other 75mm Krupp models went into German service in numbers before 1919.

CharlieC · Legend

�

The only other 75mm Krupp guns which seem to have been in service were some of the guns from a Brazilian order seized at the

outbreak of war. Marco at bulgarianartillery.it says that 50 guns of the 108 seized were delivered to divisions on the Eastern Front

�and 18 to Reichs Marine Amt. The 75mm guns didn't seem to stay in German service for long - the survivors were�given to the

Bulgarian Army with a small amount of ammunition.�

(http://www.bulgarianartillery.it/Bulgarian%20Artillery%201/Krupp%2075mm_Brazil.htm).

Regards,

Charlie

Rectalgia · Legend

kkfj1 wrote:
Hello,
For unknown reason it's very slow and uneasy for me to post images on my computer, so I can only upload one photo that I think is the most interesting.

Hopefully someone can answer your query about the gun in Chinese Military Museum in Beijing - but as to difficulty in uploading images, I suggest you try at some time removing (from your member profile) your "signature" image http://www.beiyang.org/wenku/images/PingYuenx.JPG for a posting trial without it.� Linked images are always problematical (in more ways than one) and it may be the server overheads which are conflicting with your ability to post (other) images into the forum.� You can always restore it if there is no improvement.