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Post Info TOPIC: Afghan FT Theory Updated.
James H


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Afghan FT Theory Updated.
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Curiouser and curiouser. It might be me, but the origins of the FT that has been restored at Saumur have never become totally clear. The two from the scrapyard went to Ft. Knox; that's definite, even though Major Delbarre of the French Army can be seen inspecting them with an American colleague. We're unlikely to discover where they were between 1923 and 2003. The one that has just gone to Poland has been on display in somewhere in Afghanistan for a long time. We're not exactly sure where, but it looks as if it's the one in the photos with the arch in the background. Feel free to argue.

Now, I have just read a theory that the Saumur one came from a different location altogether. There's a suggestion that it was found in a place on the Afgh/Pakistan border called Spin Boldak (or Buldak), close to Kandahar. This description of the place is from Le Figaro of June 2006:

"Derrière une chicane de merlons pliants remplis de terre et un périmètre de barbelés, on distingue des drapeaux qui claquent dans les bourrasques de poussière. A côté de l'emblème national afghan et du drapeau américain flotte un drapeau français. Un peu plus loin, un drapeau folklorique breton gwenn-ha-du, sans doute hissé là par des commandos marine nostalgiques de Lorient.

Cette ancienne caserne de l'armée afghane où trône la carcasse d'un char Renault de 1917, sans doute livré à l'Afghanistan entre les deux guerres mondiales, est depuis l'été 2003 la base des Forces spéciales françaises en Afghanistan."

Brief translation: This former Afghan Army barracks, where the carcase of a Renault tank from 1917, probably delivered to Afghanistan between the Wars, is on display (lit. "enthroned") has been since 2003 the base for the French Special Forces in Afghanistan. (Gwenn Ha Du is the black-and-white Breton flag)

Suddenly, this makes sense. It looks as if this is how the confusion with the "French Special Forces" and the two FTs from the scrapyard has arisen. What's more, the photo below is said to be from a French TV report or documentary about Spin Boldak. The bit of camo uniform visible on the left is decidedly 20th or 21st century. So I think this is where the Saumur FT came from. I can't make out the logo top right, but it's probably that of the French TV channel. I humbly submit that I have sorted this one out.

Enclosed is a photo taken in or near Kandahar. It's described as a "Soviet Two-man Tank," but I'm not sure it is. It does, though, demonstrate that military vehicles on plinths are plentiful in Afghanistan.



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James H


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Further evidence. I'm not (yet) at liberty to publish certain material, but the Spin Boldack theory does seem to hold up. The left-hand image above is a still from a news report of French TV Channel 2, in May 2006. There exists another photo, from a different angle, taken by a Coalition soldier of what seems to be the same vehicle in surroundings as described in the article in Le Figaro: "une chicane de merlons pliants remplis de terre et un périmètre de barbelés."

The gun is missing, as are the engine cover and lid of the cupola, and it's covered in graffiti, and pretty rusty, but it seems almost certain that it's at Spin Boldak.

Whether the well-known picture below is of Afghanistan and of the same vehicle is still hard to say. Engine cover and cupola lid are also missing, but that could be coincidence. Argument against is that this one has the Renault plate on the running gear, which the others haven't. It could have fallen off or been removed, of course, although I can't see any traces of where it might have been attached.

That's the best I can do for the moment.



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AgaPablo


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A Renault tank was displayed at the entrance of an Afghan Army barracks close to the Big Mosque in Kabul in the spring of 2002, it was on a plynth side by side with a soviet BMP (not 100% sure now of this last detail, but there was a more recent AFV flanking the other side of the entrance), suddenly, in early summer 2002 it dissapeared never to be seen again. Shortly afterwards, when the Italians recovered their Cv35,s they said that the French had also recovered one of their vehicles for restoration.

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James H


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Pablo - if I understand things correctly, the FT that has just gone to Poland is the one that was on display in Kabul in the Afghan National Army base. It had earlier been on display, as you say, alongside the Soviet BMP, in front of an arch at a location that we have so far been unable to identify, and we don't know how it got from there to the ANA camp. The FT that went to France was the one that had been outside the camp at Spin Boldak.



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AgaPablo


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Well, I don't know what ANA base you`re refering to, but according to my info, a Ft displayed in 2002 at an Afghan barracks located just across the Kabul river from the Big Mosque (Idgah Mosque according to Google) went to the French that same year. This makes sense as there were no French troops outside Kabul in 2003, when the Saumur Ft went (first) to decorate a French base in Afghanistan.

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James H


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That's not as I understand it. The FT that has just gone to Poland is the one in pictures 1 and 2. I've tried very hard to pinpoint its location, and I think it's the Kabul Military Training Centre, about 8 miles due east of Kabul centre. You can see from the growth of the rosebush that it had been there for quite some time. I've tried to identify the building  on Google maps, but without success so far. Can see plenty of flowerbeds etc, but can't pick out the building or the FT. It was taken from there to Bagram airbase, to be flown to Poland.

According to Agence France-Presse, French troops were installed in a discreet base on the outskirts of Spin Boldak at the start of August 2003. Picture 3 was taken in October 2005 by an American working with French Special Forces there. The film from which picture 4 is a 'still' was broadcast on French TV on May 20th, 2006.I'm certain that that is the vehicle that went to Saumur. Restoration was begun there in March 2007: http://www.museedesblindes.fr/spip.php?article121

This all seems to make sense with me. I'd be very interested if you have sources that disagree.



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James H


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Hi, Pablo. I have just been doing that very thing. I'm now convinced that the FT that's in Poland was inside the Ministry of Defence, not the Kabul Military Training Centre. Picture below shows exactly what you suggest - the two hangars, one with the projections. I think the satellite view must be quite old - no flowerbeds etc - but it looks right. If anyone fancies a look, its map ref is 34°31'24"N   69°11'13"E. Put it in Google or Wikimapia and it will take you there.



-- Edited by James H on Thursday 15th of November 2012 08:30:32 PM

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AgaPablo


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Certainly, the one at Kabul in 2002 was in much better shape than the one in pictures 3 & 4, it had its cannon but I can't remember if it had a skid tail.
On looking thoroughly at the background of pictures 1 & 2, it may be the inside yard of the barracks where it was located the 2002 Ft, have a look at Google there seems to be two big buff hangars in that place as well.

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Rectalgia


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One used to be able to look up the date for current imagery used in Google Maps satellite imagery, but that went out the window when Google Earth started. Apparently you get the date of the imagery (with some qualification) now when using Google Earth and you can also browse historical imagery (if available) in the same - http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2011/03/how_google_earth_displays_dates_on.html. That would be the basic (and above) Google Earth installation I guess - dates certainly don't appear when using the "Earth" 3D extension for Google Maps which is all I currently have installed.

For what it's worth

Google Maps link for the exact location (hopefully): http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=34.522147,69.188217&num=1&t=h&gl=uk&z=19


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James H


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Thanks, Stephen. You have out-technologied me yet again, and it is much appreciated.

Pablo - that ties in. The Id Gah Mosque is directly across the river from the Ministry of Defence. If you zoom in here: http://www.gearthhacks.com/downloads/map.php?file=2206 you can see the mosque and the two hangars. It looks as if the FT never left the area and was just moved inside the perimeter. Don't know what happened to the BMP, but the archway that we haven't been able to identify must be (or have been) part of the perimeter of the MoD. It's hard to get any further with this because Streetview doesn't operate in Kabul.



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AgaPablo


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James H wrote:

 Don't know what happened to the BMP, but the archway that we haven't been able to identify must be (or have been) part of the perimeter of the MoD. It's hard to get any further with this because Streetview doesn't operate in Kabul.

 The arch is there as well, just look carefully at the Southern perimeter of the barracks, the shade of an entrance arch appears clearly drawn in the floor!



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James H


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You'll have to help me, Pablo. I can't spot it. Give me a clue.



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TinCanTadpole


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James, might the white strip in the centre of the photo be the arch - the line to the right of building 'A'?



-- Edited by TinCanTadpole on Sunday 18th of November 2012 12:29:42 AM

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AgaPablo


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Just walk down (towards the river) the opposite façade where the Ft was located of those two big hangars, and when you get to the perimeter you will find the arch's shade pointing towards the barrack's yard.

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James H


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That's very interesting. There certainly is a shadow (B) that looks like that of an arch, but is it? It's possible that the object A is an the arch, but taking into account the camera angle, the direction of the sunlight, and the shadows of the other buildings, I can't see anything that could be throwing the arch-like shadow. There doesn't seem to be anything that tall compared to surounding structures. I wish we had Solomon J. Solomon to interpret the aerial photographs.



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James H


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I don't think so, TCT. The shadow looks like an arch, but it would have to be much taller than the neighbouring buildings, and the base of the shadow doesn't seem match up with anything. Have put out some more feelers.



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James H


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This info is from a gent currently working in Kabul. On the location of the camouflaged archway, he says:

"I've asked one of my guys who has lived here in Kabul for 40 odd years, and he says it is the Presidential Palace on the southern side of the city. The pic he says is from pre-taliban rule days."



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James H


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Have found a better shot of the Renault at Spin Boldak. Nine minutes into this news report: http://www.ina.fr/video/3092362001/20-heures-le-journal-emission-du-20-mai-2006.fr.html

The still appears a few seconds into the report.



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James H


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Nice video walkround of FT in grounds of MoD in Kabul, prior to shipping to Poland. Against concrete blast wall that can be seen in satellite photo.

http://www.rmf24.pl/fakty/polska/news-wyjatkowy-zabytek-wraca-z-afganistanu-do-polski,nId,644379,repId,41982323



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