Landships II

As far as I know, Afghanistan was not one of the countries that officially took delivery of these tanks, however Iran did take delivery of a company (25 vehicles) of these light tanks in 1924 and it is therefore possible that they passed some of them on to Afghanistan in the 1930s. I had seen something at least a year ago about this incredible find (as an aside to show how old stuff just shows up in the weirdest places, when I was in Somalia back in 1988 and 1989, there were the rusting hulks of an M-5 light tank or an M-8 75mm howitzer motor carriage (ex-Saudi?) and an old Staghound armored car.) I believe an FT-17 was once at the Army Museum in Kabul (?). The Afghans are known to have had some improvised American built "Disston" tanks as well as some Italian CV-33 tankettes during the 1930s.

SASH155 wrote:

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Afghans are known to have had some improvised American built "Disston" tanks

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One has recently been photograohed in a Kabul scrapyard. Actually its not quite accurate to call these improvised. Disston sold kits specially designed to convert tracked tractors into tanks (of dubious use). Not much of a step from the early Holt and Best efforts in 1916/17. The idea was copied in both Australia and New Zealand circa 1940 (the latter being known as the Bob Semple after the then minister of defence) and possibly in Canada. These were effectively improvisations. One contemporary military assesment of the Bob Semple tanks was that a couple of Bren carriers would have been of more value.

-- Edited by Centurion at 12:30, 2006-01-05

I looked at the photos in one of my books that were taken in Afghanistan by Steve Zaloga at the museum back pre-Taliban (1989 or 1990), but it does not show any FT-17s, contrary to my prior statements. I suppose the Soviet path is one of the most logical ones for these tanks. Perhaps someone could weigh in with the definitive answer on where the Afghans acquired these tanks. I am very interested in arms exports world wide throughout history (besides, current international arms sales and international military equipment inventories are part of my job). 

A bit of trawling found these pictures of the Afghan FT-17s under restoration

http://svsm.org/gallery/ft-17

The same site has a few shots of the Kubinka Mark V Hermaphrodite

Looks like the ML pictures have expired.

These ones haven't

http://www.afvnews.ca/cgi-bin/web-bbs/webbbs_config.pl/read/68573#68573

and the thread suggests that there is more than one

At last a picture of the one in Kabul!

And one more for the survivors list

The comment about FT-17s being rare is amusing, I've found over two dozen survivors so far...

Some have speculated that the tanks were actually Fiat 3000s, but after examining the photos I conclude that they are the real McCoys from any one of the four original builders (Renault of course, Berliet, Delaunay-Belleville or SOMUA). It is perfectly possible that France exported these tanks to the Afghans as they exported thousands of weapons of various types to many countries during the war and post war. I find from time to time that certain countries had a particular type of French weapon post WW1 that does not show up in the current analysis and lists of country weapons inventories. The French have always been prolific arms dealers. 

The myth, now repeated across so many web sites, that one (or more) of the FT17s found recently in Afghanistan was captured from the British in the 1919 war can be laid to rest. In fact the only tank that the Afghans captured from the British was the small town of Tank on the North West Frontier(yes there really is a town there called Tank) when the Afghan army first invaded. It was soon recaptured (hence another erroneous report that the briish had captured a tank from the Afghans). The British used no tanks in this campaign and had no Renault FTs in India at all. I mentioned that I had seen a report that Whippets were used. I've run this one down too. There is circulating a photo taken in the Khyber pass that proports to be a British Whippet tank. In fact it is a Lloyd carrier from the 30s! Where ever the Renaults came from it must have been later (possibly aquired by one of the sides in the 1929 Afghan civil war - its never exactly been the most peaceful spot on the globe).

First, I would love to see that museum! As for their prohibition on photo taking its a typical third world dictatorship's attempt to keep control of everything and maintain absurd levels of secrecy even for stuff that is really old. By the way, and I know this is not relevant to the Great War at all, but do you know your modern US armor fairly well? If so can you tell me if there was an M-48 medium tank at that museum, and if so what variant was it? I have read that they had the original gasoline powered, 90mm gun M-48 from 1953-1954 (before the useless enclosed commander's cupola) and then between 1970 and 1972 they modified them all locally directly to the M-48A5 standard (with the 105mm M-68 main gun, diesel AVDS-1790 engine, new FCS) without having used any of the interim versions ie: M-48A1, M-48A2 or the M-48A3. I speculate that there may have been some confusion between the later versions of the M-48 and the M-47M, a modernized M-47 medium tank, as the intelligence entries sometimes said M-47/48, with a number of vehicles that approximates the number of M-47s the Iranians once had. Perhaps they never had M-48s at all; I have never seen a photo of an Iranian M-48 and earlier (especially mid 1970s) reports fail to mention it in their inventory, however I have seen plenty of photos of Iranian M-60A1s, M-47Ms and Chieftains. 

-- Edited by SASH155 at 07:22, 2006-01-11

@Sash

Good that you ask about the M-48...Well... Okay I'll tell the whole thing.

Inside Tehran there is a huge Park with several palaces of the Shahs, named Sad Abaad. And inside each Palace there are different Museums. One is about Cryptology, one about Agriculture, one about Poets, arts, etc.

And of course the Military Museum. It is accessable through a way wich (of course...) is controlled by an extra Military Checkpoint ,with some rather lazy and friendly soldiers BTW,thet told us that it is strictly forbidden to take any pictures.

The First things you see are the First Shahs Rolls Royce in an Vitrine and and American Helicopter used in the Iran-Iraq war wich shot down several Iraqis.

Outside the Museum, they display the Tanks, Armoured vehicles and Artillery (aswell as Planes and Helicopters... Among them a Fieseler and Storch). On the Frontside you can find The Pre- 1945 tanks (among them 3 Shermans, 2 Czech Skoda 35(t) and 38(t), T34, 2 Armoured Cars (wich I couldn't identify, but probably from WW1 or the 20's-30's), and several other mainly US Halftracks, and one vehicle that seemed to be a Converted German WW2 Krupp Protze.

The Artillery ,displayed on the frontside, reaches from Crimean War Artillery to the 1960's. Most are 1912-18 manufactured, with the majority from Russia.Also French 75mm Guns, British 13/18 pdr and some Howitzers (probably left in Iran after the British occupation in WW1). Also a German WW2 Flak, and of course loads of US and Soviet WW2 Artillery.

And now the part interesting to you. On the backside of the Museum they display many more tanks, All of them from 1945-88. But you probably guessed it... Two moronic looking gorillas in Uniform and Kalashnikovs walk towards me and say that this part of the museum is not accessible and that we should keep distance. I could recognize a T72, a T54 and a US M60... I guess that the M48 you asked for might be among them, but I had no chance to see them. AFAIK Iran still uses several hundreds of US Patton tanks, and also of course T54-72.

Inside the Museum we (4 persons) encountered not a single visitor, but 10 armed soldiers. When you walk throught the Museum you will first pass a chronological Vitirne display of the Iranian Military Uniforms, from Ancient Persian warriors, Persian medival body armor, to 1930-40 Uniform and finally an Iranian 1982 Soldier Uniform display wich looks exactly like an 1942 US Soldier.

The Two story building has in it's basement mainly ancient Swords, shields, daggers, armor, bows and Arrows, followed by MANY MANY gorgeous Rifles from 16th-19th Century. One curiousity is a cannon mounted and operated from Camel back! 

Then you enter a special section with Personal Weapons and Awards of the Royalty wich consisted mostly of Weapons donated from US, Israeli or Turkish State Guests, Officials and Military Personell.

Then , walking upstairs, FINALLY the Most interesting Section covering WW1-WW2. You will find 6 greatly preserved Austrian Schwarzlose, German MG08 and Russian Maxim Machine Guns, followed by British Vickers and French Hotchkiss and Chauchat MG's. Also some Mortars wich seemed to be Russian. Also there were Uniforms displayed with Fur and Field Caps but also German and Austrian M17-M18 Steelhelmets and later US M1 and Soviet Helmets.

Then of course lot's of Persian Mauser Rifles and Lugers and several C96's. This section for WW1-WW2 Infantry section lasts till the end, where you have to walk downstairs and pass again two unfriendly soldiers. When we were at the Entrance to leave, I wanted to watch again more closely a displayed Imperial Iranian Officers uniform from 1943 wich was only 2 meters away, but the soldiers turned mad and yelled at me to go away and that it's impossible to enter the museum twice! Then they even called an Officer who argued with us to leave the Museum (for wich we paid of course)! Finally they gave in and let me wath this darn Uniform but only accompanied by two guards!

Well all in all an really interesting and well made museum but led by the same morons that ruined the country.

-- Edited by Doggowitz at 21:03, 2006-01-13

Like I said, this type of secrecy at all costs (reminds me of a certain president who will remain un-named) makes you look silly at the very least or that you have something that you desperately want to hide. Is'nt it great that the Iranians have museums in which entire sections are closed to the public and where no-one visits, because they fear that they just might get shot by G-3/AK wielding 'curators'?

-- Edited by SASH155 at 19:49, 2006-01-14

Thanks for the update, Runflat. Those pictures are just great.

Are you connected with the restoration in any way? Do you know if either of these, er, FT 18 tanks could ever be a runner again? Their engines look in good enough shape. And are they on show to the public, or are there plans to do so? Lot of questions, sorry!

Well, thanks again for the update.