Landships II

Lothianman · Colonel

Fine Molds IJA Type 41 75mm

d_fernetti · Hero

ajhs-41.jpg?w=700

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The posing of the figures is very good. However the simple shield and the carriage shape of the gun don't look like a WW1 period design. The spoked wheels, however, seem to be very well molded and be accurate. I have a 1/35 French 75mm Field Gun from "TOM" (a little known German manufacturer) that could benefit of those wheels!

Lothianman · Colonel

I'm not sure if you are expressing doubt that the gun is of the Great War era, but you would be quite right to raise the point, as I should also have explained that Type 41 does not mean what it sounds like.

It is not "1941 year type" in the sense of the Western calendar, but regnal year 41, and in this case Meiji reign year 41 = Western 1908; so it is indeed a design of the WW1 era and even before it.

The gun is said to be based on the Krupp M08 75mm mountain gun export model, but I don't know enough about the differences, if any, introduced by the Japanese to know if a conversion is easy.

d_fernetti · Hero

Well, I meant that the design of some parts of the carriage seemed updated from the usual early XXth century designs (the tubular frame of the carriage, the simplified shield). Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm more used to the more complex designs of the Krupp Argentinian carriages that positively look like a XIXth century remnant.
Here's something that I'd expect from a WW1-era design: http://files.activeboard.com/837935?AWSAccessKeyId=1XXJBWHKN0QBQS6TGPG2&Expires=1374710400&Signature=9CsjG99gf0PxisEMJMKsLUfyi%2BA%3D

d_fernetti · Hero

Or this:

CharlieC · Legend

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The carriage wasn't peculiar - it was pretty much standard for German mountain guns before WW1 - both Krupp and Rheinmetall Gebirgskanone used

this type of carriage. It was designed to fold up so the carriage could be reduced to a man/horse portable package once removed from the gun.

The Type 41 had a long career since it proved to be quite useful in jungle fighting since it could be man carried through jungles.

Here's another Type 41 - this one was built at Nagoya in 1942 -�http://www.ammsbrisbane.com/documentation/type41_3.html

Most of the wikipedia entries on Japanese artillery are direct copies of the text in a WW2 US Army Manual on Japanese artillery.

A particular irritant with the wikipedia Japanese gun entries is their use of Kanji which reads left to right - this didn't happen until the language

reforms in 1946 - before this date Kanji is read right to left.

Regards,

Charlie

ps. My article on Japanese gun markings has an explanation of the Japanese "Type" system.

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 18th of July 2013 12:58:56 AM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 18th of July 2013 02:45:57 AM

CharlieC · Legend

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I had thought increased elevation was the main reason for the parallel tubes too - but - the max. elevation of the 7.5cm Krupp Gebirgskanone M08 is quoted

as 25� - not much more than the standard 7.5/7.7cm field gun (16 - 18.5� - depending on type). My thought is that it was the lightest structure

the German gun makers could build and still be able to traverse the gun and absorb residual recoil forces as well as being able to reduce the trunnion

height since the breech could recoil between the tubes.�

Regards,

Charlie

�

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 18th of July 2013 01:40:12 AM

Roger Todd · Legend

There is a photo of one on the IJA site with that peculiar parallel twin-tube carriage trail:

http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/41-75.htm

But it doesn't date it so it could be post-1918.

The one on the wiki entry also has that carriage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_41_75_mm_Mountain_Gun

But given the writer can't even do his/her maths in the first paragraph (assigning Meiji Year 41 to 1898 in the Western calendar!), well...

Ironsides · Legend

Here's a spread sheet of pics of the Ehrhardt 75mm L17 Gebirgsgesh�tz 1907(M08) its looks very similar(it looks to me like there is a different breech though), compare this with krupp 75mm L14....

http://i49.tinypic.com/33epvnt.jpg�Ehrhardt L17

What appears to be a Turkish example http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/H00572A/

http://i45.tinypic.com/qybk1w.jpg�Krupp L14

http://i46.tinypic.com/303g6es.jpg�Krupp L18

a survivor perhaps...

http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/militaria/mountaingun.htm

�Sorry having problems uploading pics at the moment hope the links will suffice...

Cheers smile

�

-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 18th of July 2013 07:23:57 AM

Roger Todd · Legend

CharlieC wrote:
The carriage wasn't peculiar - it was pretty much standard for German mountain guns before WW1 - both Krupp and Rheinmetall Gebirgskanone used this type of carriage. It was designed to fold up so the carriage could be reduced to a man/horse portable package once removed from the gun.
Charlie

Thanks for the detail, though I have to say it was peculiar to me as I'd not seen a carriage quite like that before. I would have thought a better reason for using parallel twin tubes was to allow for higher angle elevation, useful on a mountain gun, otherwise they could have merely used a single tube type carriage (e.g. Erhardt 15pdr, British 13pdr, 18pdr, etc.).

CharlieC · Legend

The Japanese had a preference for interrupted screw breeches rather than the sliding wedge breeches the German designers preferred.

However, to Krupp, making the sale was much more important so many of the Krupp designs were supplied to the Japanese with interrupted screw

breeches. As well as the Type 41 Mountain Gun, the Type 38 15cm Howitzer (Krupp 15cm sFH02), Type 38 12cm Howitzer, Type 38 10cm Field Gun (Krupp 10cm K04)�

were all supplied with interrupted screw breeches. Oddly the Type 38 Field Gun (7.5cm Krupp export gun) retained the sliding wedge breech - no idea why.

Regards,

Charlie

�

kkfj1 · Major

It's great news! I have been wondering why those Japanese manufactureres have no passion for their own guns, leaving us modellers with no other choice but to scratch-built... I have scratch-built a 1:15 Type 31 mountain gun and is planning for a Type 41, but now perhaps I'll just go with this wonderful model...

Hope FM can release a Type 38 field gun in the future(they have released a nice Type 90 if I remember correctly).

BTW, is the mother Type of Type 41 an Ehrhardt gun or a Krupp gun?

CharlieC · Legend

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The Type 41 is a Krupp-designed gun.

Regards,

Charlie

Lothianman · Colonel

Fine Molds Type 90? New one to me - er, do you mean the Pit Road TYpe 90 75mm? A bit late for the Great War but it's a nice enougn model and comes in horse and motorised traction versions.

Pit Road also do a 28 cm howitzer (the one used at Port Arthur).

The gun is said to be based on the Krupp M.08 but I can't confirm that.

CharlieC · Legend

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Franz Kosar's "Artillerie im 20. Jahrhundert" Teil 1 p.107 says:

Herstellerfirma (Manufacturer) - Krupp

Bezeichnung (Description) - 7,5cm Gebirgskanone Meiji 41

Regards,

Charlie

Ironsides · Legend

Charlie do you have a pic of the Krupp 75mm M08 mountain gun rather the the Japanese type 41 variant?� something I cant seem to find anywhere... I did notice though that the Erhardt and type 41 trail is a long way from being identical, so it could be that krupp simply copied the idea for that particular model, I also think the type 41�may be�physically larger... it gives that impression....

I came across this pic though they are apparantly the Erhardts captued in west africa..

Cheers smile

d_fernetti · Hero

Thinking about the figures that come along with this kit... I wonder if they would be feasible to convert them into German mountain troops, perhaps with a change of heads (with Bergm�tze) and some equipment items. The putees and ankle boots are already there... I just wonder if the body proportions would be so noticeable (Asian vs. European)

Ironsides · Legend

I came across an article called "Le nouveau canon de montagne japonais" in�Revue d'artillerie 81�page 428 to 436.

The Link is a little slow so patience!

It seems to be the gun in question...

The article seems to say the gun is a Compromise bettween Schneider-Canet, Erhardt and Skoda, and seems to suggest some connection to Creusot? I'm afraid my limited knowledge of French and the dodgy translater fail me here, perhaps its worth a look at by someone with a better understanding of French, its possible to access the relevant article directly with link above(or should be)

Many Thanks in Anticipation wink

Edit: there's also and article in "The field artillery journal 1912" oct-dec page 635 found here:

http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/index.html#1911

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-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 19th of December 2013 05:25:55 PM

CharlieC · Legend

The key to making sense out of these articles is the statement in the Field Artillery Journal (top of P.635):

"Information concerning this gun is still incomplete, as under the Japanese regulations all important changes in mat�riel are held as confidential

for five years from the date of introduction."

Both articles are purely speculative about the Type 41 gun. Neither article identifies the gun as a Krupp design. They didn't seem to realise that

Krupp was quite happy to supply guns with interrupted screw breeches, like the 7.5cm field guns for Argentina in 1909, and even seemed to be quite

happy that the Japanese sourced interrupted screw breeches from Schneider-Cruesot for the Osaka built 15cm Type 38 field howitzer (a variant of the 15cm sFH 02).

Regards,

Charlie