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Post Info TOPIC: 152mm guns: How to tell them apart?
Pat


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152mm guns: How to tell them apart?
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The 152mm Schneider howitzers m1915 and m1917 were very modern guns for their day.

What is often overlooked is the fact the Russians used very similar guns from the very beginning of WW1. I have become interested in the 152mm howitzer model 1909.

There is some info about it in its updated 1909/30 version (e. g. here) but I am wondering

- how to tell the original 1909 version from the 1909/30 (not all updated guns received new wheels),

- how to tell the orignal 1909 version from the 1910 version, and

- how to tell the original 1909 version from the French m1915 and m1917.

I would appreciate some details since I am thinking of building a 1/72 kit once the Schneider gun becomes available from Miniairons. Thanks in advance, regards, Pat



-- Edited by Pat on Friday 4th of October 2013 11:47:29 AM

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CharlieC


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AFAIK the story of the Schneider howitzers runs something like this:

In 1907 the Russian Govt. ran a process to update their artillery park after the Japanese demonstrated the obsolescence of Russian artillery

in the war of 1904-05. The Russians were after two 152mm howitzers - a heavy one for use as mobile guns inside fortifications and a field howitzer.

Schneider responded with two howitzers, the M1909 (fortress) and M1910 (field) [hope I've got these the right way round].

The French Army wasn't interested in heavy field howitzers at this time believing that the 75mm M1897 was all they needed along with a small

number of 155mm Rimailho M1904 TR howitzers. Fortunately the French 1913 armaments program included the development of a new 155mm howitzer.

Schneider based their 155mm field howitzer on the 1907 Russian howitzers and this was demonstrated in prototype form in August 1914.

This was accepted as the M1915. The M1917 differed only in the breech which had an obturator so that bagged propellant

could be used rather than cartridges. Post WW1 the Schneider M1917s  were in service with many armies including the US, some were still in

service in WW2.

The Russian updated their 152mm howitzers in the 1930s - the famous 152mm ML-20 WW2 howitzer is lineal descendant of the Schneider 

howitzers.

In terms of differences between the 152mm M1909 and 155m Schneider M1915 I can spot 3 obvious ones:

- the gun shield on the M1915 was a different shape than the M1909.

- the counterweight block on the M1915 above the breech isn't on the M1909

- the reinforcing ring on the muzzle of the M1915 isn't present on the M1909.

Regards,

Charlie

 



-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 4th of October 2013 12:55:03 PM



-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 4th of October 2013 01:32:44 PM

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28juni14


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Building on previous answers, here are a few photo references.   The first two are the Mle1915/17 as used by the US Army post-war; Fitted with rubber tyres (not pneumatic0 as opposed to original steel tyres.  You will note the muzzle ring and breach counter weight.

The second two pics are the Ruski  152mm M1909.   The cosmetic differences are readily discernible.   I believe the French piece had greater elevation and thus allowed greater range.

Incidentally, the Ruski howitzer is one of only two Great War period ordinance pieces that remained at Aberdeen Proving Grounds a decade ago. (The other being the Krupp M1917 8,8cm K-Flak.)  In 1954 the primary ordnance officer( a Colonel, not a civilian ) decided to dispose of all WW1 period field pieces and supporting material; they were such an annoying clutter.   These two items survived only because he was ignorant enough to think they dated from WW2. ( I'm  sure you've all seen the pics of the Big Bertha being towed away behind a 5 ton lorry in route to a scrap dealer.)



-- Edited by 28juni14 on Friday 4th of October 2013 07:51:33 PM

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Legend

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in addition to Charlie's detailed info, I think there is a little explanation in Ian V Hogg's Allied Artillery of WW1. I'll have a look for you.



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CharlieC


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The max. elevations on the Putilov M1909 and Schneider M1915/17 were nearly the same - 41 deg (M1909) and 42 deg (M1915).

I think the increased max. range of the M1915 (11000m) over the M1909 (9000m) was due to a slightly longer barrel L/15 vs. L/14 and internal ballistics

changes which gave higher muzzle velocities - 381 m/sec (M1909) compared to 450 m/sec (M1915).

Just to confuse the Russian 152mm howitzer story - Krupp also sold 152mm howitzers to Russia. From memory the Krupp M1909 was the fortress gun

and the M1910 was the field gun. 

Regards,

Charlie



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Pat


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Many thanks for your input. You guys rock.

I have spent quite some time looking at the images but seem to be unable to spot the differences between the two gunshields? (Would not be the first time I am _not_ seeing things.)

What I did note is the Russian gun has 14-spoked wheels as well. I have seen photos of guns in the Spanish Civil War Spain with 12 spokes per wheel.

It seems incredible that so little info seems available online and in recently printed form about these pathbreaking and widely used guns. Regards, Pat

 



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Pat


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This one looks like a 152mm gun of WW1 vintage to me but I'm not sure of the model. If anyone could ID it I would me interested to learn how to. Regards, Pat



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28juni14


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A bit difficult to positively identify, but it appears to be a 122mm M1910; judging by the trail detail which looks like the Schneider design.   I can't tell if the recouperator extends all the way to the bore;  if it does not, then it could be the 122mm M1931.



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Pat


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Thanks for that, much appreciated. Regards, Pat



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