Landships II

CharlieC · Legend

Images of Schneider/Putilov 152mm M10 gun

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Charlie would this be what your after, from the book "Les �tablissements Schneider. Mat�riels d'artillerie et bateaux de guerre 1914" posted by Pat in the French artillery manual thread. two guns are shown, I think the first is Italian the secound Russian, the only ones I could see listed as in service from a quick scan....�

enhanced images

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Cheers smile

CharlieC · Legend

�

I think the two Schneiders are the 152mm howitzers which became the M09 and M10 howitzers in Russian service. The M10 gun had an L/28 barrel

which was much longer than the L/14 (M09) and L/12 (M10) barrels of the howitzers.

Good find though - sometime the Russian howitzers will have to be sorted out on Landships II.

Regards,

Charlie

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Charlie in that case there are a couple of 150-155mm guns in the same volume I guess its possible theres some connection...

enhanced images

searching using the Russian term�seems to work, unfortunately the forum doesn't seem to support Cyrillic so heres the link�

152mm Schneider M10�

which led to this

http://milday.ru/ussr/ussr-army/urrs-artillery/771-152-mm-osadnaya-pushka-obrazca-1910-goda.html

What might explain it not being in the Schneider book, is it seem to have been in development for some time the first being produced by Putilov and delivered june 1914 and the list is for "in Service"... �http://ww1.milua.org/R152osad.htm

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Cheers smile

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-- Edited by Ironsides on Wednesday 11th of December 2013 11:49:05 AM

CharlieC · Legend

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Thank you - the M10 is clearly a Schneider gun but there are some detail differences like the guides at the muzzle end of the barrel.

As far as I can tell from the translated text the Russian Army there were about 70 guns ordered during WW1.

Regards,

Charlie

Ironsides · Legend

I read 56 in the initial order for the Army followed later by 17 for the navy but these seem to be for naval mounts, then its gets confusing, the Army seems to have had about 2 dozen+ in service with a number in storage during WW1 ... but the actual numbers produced has'nt translated well

I think you need a Russian speaker for this..

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Cheers smile

ain92 · Sergeant

Hello.

How I can help?
There're very few images of 6" gun M1910 in the Runet, mostly derived from the photos published by A. Shirokorad in his History of domestic artillery (you've already found a fragment from it).

Regards, Ilya.

CharlieC · Legend

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Hi Ilya,

Thank you. Perhaps you could help with a translation of the following passage:

"<<stupid editor doesn't understand cyrillic script - I'll turn it into an image >> ."

The machine translator makes a mess out of this - it seems that the early guns had problems with deforming and cracking but the translator doesn't have the

right vocabulary to identify what the problem was.

I'd really appreciate it if you would read the article on the 152mm M10 gun on Landships II to check if I've got the information mostly correct. I used to think working

from translated French texts was sometimes difficult but Russian texts are a whole new level.

Maybe the Germans captured some M10s and if we're lucky there might be images of them. I'm still looking for an image of the French Schneider prototype - the French

seem to have documented all their prototype guns.

It sounds as if�A. Shirokorad's book would be worth�getting since many of the WW1 French guns were originally developed for the Russian Army and often

were built under licence in Russia.

Regards,

Charlie

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-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 16th of December 2013 11:02:38 AM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 16th of December 2013 11:07:55 AM

ain92 · Sergeant

Hello, Charlie.

The passage translates as�following:
�It�[the artillery piece -- my�annotation] was equipped with a�hydraulical recoil brake and a�hydropneumatical recuperator. The steel barrel consisted of�a�tube, a�jacket and a�connecting part [I'm not sure if�Shirokorad meant locking hoop or�something else]. The locking [of�the bore] was realised with an�interrupted screew breech-block.�

Shirokorad claims 15 guns were lost by the beginning of 1917, so Germans should have captures some. I've never seen any such photos, but you'ld better ask someone active on German eBay.

Regarding�Entsyklopediya otechestvennoy artillerii, I wrote to you via PM.

What about the article, I�have several minor remarks.

�The first guns from Putilov had weak carriages which deformed and cracked around the barrel support areas��-- not the barrel supports but the box trail.
�In�part this may have been due to�poor quality Russian steel2��-- there's no�such information at�the source.
�An�operational solution to�this problem was to�fire one in�three projectiles with reduced charge to�limit the muzzle velocity to�349-469�m/sec...��-- not one in�three projectiles but (it�was prescribed to�fire) one of�three reduced charges.
�...guide plates were added to�muzzle to�help with removal/installation of�the barrel��-- what's the source for this? I�thought these were usual front guide clip.
�Later in�the war the Russian army started using tractors, often imported American Allis-Chamers tractors, to�move these guns��-- it was Allis-Chalmers, you know. Also you forgot to�say that a�tractor was towing both the barrel trailer and the carriage in�tandem.
�It�took 20-30�minutes to�ready the gun for firing��-- these numbers are only for trained gun crews.
�A�new split trail carriage was fitted in�the late 1930s as�the M10/37��-- first of�all, you confused M1910/34 and M1937, and despite the designation, the first one was a�brand new artillery piece, retaining only the ballistics, and AFAIK it was in service till the end of WWII.

P.S.

Check�this recent thread, there're some additional images and info there.
Also I'ld like to�note that the gun is�special because it�was one of�the first artillery pieces (if�not the first at�all, I�need additional check here) to�use variable recoil.
I'm quite interested about Krupp failing to bore out captured 3-inch guns. Could you please give me a link for further reading?
There's a�chance (not very large though) that after my�midyear exams I'll get to�the library of�the Military-Historical Museum of�Artillery, Engineer and Signal Corps and look for manuals there. However, even in�the case I'll find something interesting there's no�guarantee that I'll be�allowed to�scan some images from�it.

Regards, Ilya.

CharlieC · Legend

�

Thank you very much.

Responding to your comments

1. The machine translation wasn't clear about this - I chose the most stressed component of the carriage.

2. The comment on the quality of Russian steel comes from Herbert J�ger's book "German Artillery of World War One" - on P.90 he's talking about Antiaircraft Artillery

and the use of converted captured field guns as "Bak".

"Russian guns could not be rebored due to brittle tubes, so they kept their 7.62cm (3in) calibre, and when captured ammunition had been used up, new replacements

were manufactured in Germany"

3. Can fix that.

4. I had thought the guide plates were too far away from the front of the recoil assembly to act as recoil guides - the French used recoil guides in their 75mm field guns

but the guides were also used later to help remove the barrel. As an example the 155mm GPF has a pair of recoil guides but the 194mm GPF had another pair

close to the muzzle. The barrel on the 194mm had to be removed for transport, the 155mm had the barrel pulled back onto the carriage. It certainly is notable that

the M10 was one of the few heavy guns to use recoil guides - the French 155mm guns didn't use recoil guides.

5. I'll fix that - towing "in train" was pretty common with WW1 heavy guns.

6. Can fix that, add the qualification about a trained crew

7. Got that right - confused. I'll drop the comment about the further upgrades to the M10/30

The link to the forum article was very helpful - the images are much better than those in Shirokrad's book. Looking at the image from the rear of the M10 gun I think I've got�

an image of the French prototype, it was in a book on Schneider et Cie.

The Schneider design was certainly one of the early field guns with variable recoil but it wasn't unique, the Krupp and Rheinmetall 15cm/21cm howitzer prototypes from 1907

had variable recoil.

Regards,

Charlie�

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Ironsides · Legend

Virus warning unfortunatly Im getting a virus warning for�HTML/Framer�from the link supplied....�

Safe Browsing

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Charlie Ive come across some pictures in�Revue d'artillerie T80 1912-04 1912-09 (the link should go to the article)

I believe these 3 pictures are the Prototype for the M10.. article includes specs

what do you think?

images attached have been enhanced.

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Cheers wink

CharlieC · Legend

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Certainly looks like the prototype of the M10.

Some very interesting information in the text, for example, how the variable recoil system worked.

I did note the weight of the Russian made gun seems to have been considerably heavier than the prototype - 6777kg vs 5435kg.

The photos are interesting - I don't know much about printing but I think they used lithography (etching flat stone) which gave�

the enhanced look.

Thank you for digging this out.

Regards,

Charlie

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Charlie, your welcome.. I hope to go through all the Revue d'artillerei eventually..

The enhanced images are my own attempt at improving them wink �maybe some one else can do a better job? maybe its even possible to straighten them out? �

The extra weight might be as a result of the mod to strengthen the carriage/trail...

The first part of that particular volume has a good deal of Schneider stuff in it so probably worth a look...

Regards smile

CharlieC · Legend

�

The first article in the 1912 volume of Revue d'Artillerie (pp.5 - 55) is a survey of the "de siege" howitzers with many images - includes the 105mm, 150mm (* two versions),

21cm and 28cm howitzers. I'm fairly sure these are the prototypes of guns used by both the French and Russian armies.�

The 1907 agreement between Schneider and the Russian Govt was for the development of a range of guns (GBM 83):

3 pouces mountain gun - ??? - no French equivalent

42 lignes field gun - ??? - Canon de 105 L Mle 1913 Schnieder

6 pouces canon de siege - 152mm Putilov M10 - Canon de 155 Mle 1877/1914 Schneider

6 pouces howitzer (Obusier) - 152mm Putilov M09/152mm Putilov M10 - Canon de 155 C Mle 1915 Schneider

8 pouces howitzer (Obusier) - ??? �- no French equivalent

9 pouces howitzer (Mortier) - Mortier de 220 TR Mle 1915 Schneider

11 pouces howitzer (Mortier) - Mortier de 280 Mle 1914 Schneider

I think it's reasonably easy to get rid of the "page curl" in the scanned images - will explore this further.

CharlieC · Legend

�

Found a script for Gimp that straightens images - reasonably simple to run - just define two paths for the top and bottom of the distorted image,

run the script. The attached isn't perfect because I defined the paths to start at the image boundary - should have added a margin.

Regards,

Charlie

Ironsides · Legend

Charlie Thanks for the info the image I think is a vastly improved, will try gimp...

Cheers wink

CharlieC · Legend

�

You'll need the script:�http://registry.gimp.org/node/19214�

just copy it into the Gimp scripts directory and restart Gimp.

It does fail occasionally - usually due to problems with the path required to map the curvature.

Regards,

Charlie�

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Charlie on your list of French Russian guns�

Russian 3 pouces mountain gun - possibly this could be based on this�Canon de Montagne Demountable DE 75 TR Schneider-Danglis�

Regards smile

CharlieC · Legend

�

Certainly possible - the Danglis part of Schneider-Danglis was a Greek artillery officer who designed a gun optimised for conditions in Greece.

The French text says the guns were built for Greece and Russia - I'll have to do a detail translation to get the rest though.

I did notice the text seemed to be saying that the same barrel/receiver was fitted to one of three different carriages.

Kosar says the 75mm M06/09 was built for Greece and the 76.2mm M09 for Russia.

Regards,

Charlie�

ain92 · Sergeant

Hello again. Sorry for the late reply.

2) An interesting fact, I'll try to look for this book.
4) Measuring by the photo, they are about 1.4 m from the front end of the cradle while the recoil variated from 1.5 m to 1 m. Also you can see on photos (both French and Russian) that the barrel was reverted head over heels during the removing. So I can't agree with you.
7) No, IMHO you should write some words about post-WWI service and modernization, but I recommend to spare several phrases about M1910/30, and maybe say that the ballistics of the latter were used for later gun-howitzers.

Can you also name a page in Schneider 1914 book you were speaking about ("Looking at the image from the rear of the M10 gun I think I've got an image of the French prototype, it was in a book on Schneider et Cie.")?

Regarding the variable recoil, general Heinrich Rohne in Progress of the modern field artillery�(Die Entwicklung der modernen Feldartillerie, Vierteljahrshefte f�r Truppenf�hrung und Heereskunde No. 4, 1904) lists (see attached table) several light field howitzers with variable recoil. Some details for these artillery pieces can be found in H. A. Bethell's�Modern Guns and Gunnery. The first artillery piece using this principle seem to be a 75 mm Ehrhardt mountain gun M1904.

1910 edition of the same book claims that the recent Russian mountain gun "differs from the Greek gun in that it hasn't independent line of sight and the swinging block is not set eccentricically." Guy "ALVF" Fran�ois said�on AHF�that the Greek colonel only designed the two piece dismountable barrel, all the carriage was Schneider's own work. The text says not about three, but four (check next pages) carriages:

MPC -- straight axletree, dependent line of sight,
MPD -- �straight axletree, independent line of sight,
MPC2 -- cranked axletree, dependent line of sight,
MPD2 -- cranked axletree, independent line of sight.

So we can affirm data from�this�fascinating thread�that the Greek gun was 75-mm MPD and the Russian a 76.2-mm variant of MPC2 (MPC2bis).

CharlieC · Legend

�

I've updated the article on the 152mm Putilov M10.

Ironsides found an article on the Schneider guns - the images of the "150mm" gun was a better candidate as the prototype for the M10. I've updated the article with these images.

I think the image on Page 92 of the "Establissement Schneider" book of a prototype Schneider 155mm gun was a prototype for the Mle 1877/1914 gun - Schneider was told to use the barrel from the old de Bange gun rather than their own barrel.�

The book on the Schneider guns also has an image of the 260mm howitzer - a very rare gun - it was part of the deal between Schneider and Putilov but doesn't seem to have gone into

production.

Jaeger's book is a good general introduction to WW1 German artillery - a contact said he thought the book had been written down to the American market.

I'll have to find some time to translate the article from Revue d'Artillerie on the Schneider mountain guns. I found a list on a forum that said that the Russian Army had something

like 360 mountain guns in service in 1914. Some of them would have been the 76.2mm M1904 but there must have been significant numbers of Schneider designed guns.

Regards,

Charlie