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Post Info TOPIC: Identifying Gaza wrecks


Legend

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Identifying Gaza wrecks
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Looking at the varius photos of damaged and wrecked tanks at Gaza I am finding difficulty in reconciling the records with the photos. The records suggest that only 3 tanks were unrecoverable/unrepairable after 2nd Gaza and none were completely KOd in 3rd Gaza. I enclose a montage that shows what seem to be 4 different KOd tanks 1 and 2 show different damage, 1 and 3 have similar damage but appear to be in different positions (1 viewed from its port side is on the edge of a steepish slope and no 3 from the starboard side isn't) and no 4 is in a completely different attitude (nose down) to the rest. BTW no 3 appears to be War Baby (I attach a better qual scan so the name appears clearer). If this is the case then no 2 has to be Sir Archibald as the others are all female. If this is so then either 1 or 4 is Nutty. What is the odd tank out? The damage between 1 & 3 seems very similar so is it possible that some trick of perspective makes the positions look so different? Views (no pun intended) please.

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wrecks.jpg (57.0 kb)
warbaby.jpg (162.5 kb)
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Legend

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This I think has to be the rear view of tank no 4 in the previous post

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dTank.jpeg (18.4 kb)
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Legend

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Photos 1 and 3 have identical damage to the front left horn and the track on the right horn sags at identical locations, so they would have to be the same tank as you surmised. The ground rise is in photo 3, but not as pronounced from the angle the photo was taken.


Photos 2 and 4 are both in a nose down attitude. The damage to the roof is the same in both cases (Note the oval opening visible in both photos). Number 2 has the troops inconveniently located in front of the sponson but this is definitely a female. These 2 photos are both of the same tank which is the same tank that appears in the AWM collection. Click on "Collection Database", then "Collection Search", and enter A00226 in "Enter Search Term(s)".



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Legend

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Centurion wrote:


This I think has to be the rear view of tank no 4 in the previous post

Yes it is, and the same as no. 2. Notice the length of track lying to the left of the tank? The same track, in the same position appears in photo 2.

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Legend

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The tank photos at Gaza that the AWM has online are numbered:



  1. J01045
  2. A00226 (listed as a Mk. IV but clearly a Mk. I)
  3. P02041.006

These photos are all of the same tank as in photos 2 and 4 above.


There are also some photos which are not online which may show other tanks. These are some of the photos I hope to be able to check when visiting the AWM myself.


P.S.: One photo I especially would like to see is B02374A. In the caption, it states that the tank was knocked out by a Turkish shell and the crew escaped injury, only to be captured. This is also a stereo shot.



-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 22:17, 2006-03-06

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Legend

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So we have War Baby and Nutty but no photo of the late Sir Archibald

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Legend

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Centurion wrote:


So we have War Baby and Nutty but no photo of the late Sir Archibald

No photo yet. There may be some that the AWM or IWM don't have online but available for research and there is always the chance that a photo previously unknown will turn up. Remember Hedi II!

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Hero

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Ok Guys here is two more wrecks.


All the Best


Tim R



Attachments
GazaTank2.jpg (75.5 kb)
Tank.jpg (17.2 kb)
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Legend

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GazaTank2.jpg appears to be the same tank in photos 2 and 4. It would have been taken before 2 and 4 but has the same damage forward of the sponson and has the same small hole at the rear of the tank (top of the 3rd panel from the rear). Photos 2 and 4 possibly show additional damage sustained in recapture from artillery bombardment or damage inflicted by the Turks to further disable the tank (not that they'd need to). This would explain the tank tipping forward into the shallow area ahead of the tank.


The male tank doesn't appear to have been destroyed but disabled with a thrown track or similar problem. Hard to say, being unable to see the whole tank.



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Hero

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Hey Guys


  Here is three more Gaza wrecks


All the Best


Tim R



Attachments
Gaza 1.jpg (33.8 kb)
Gaza 2.jpg (39.9 kb)
Gaza 3.jpg (34.0 kb)
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Legend

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I suspect that these shots were taken well after the end of hostilities in the immediate area and any useful equipment had been salvaged from the wrecks. The civilian in shots 2 & 3 is wearing a jacket over his dishdashi which suggests sometime Nov to early Feb.

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Legend

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I suspect that the two shots with the man in the fez are both War Baby (1 & 3  in the original post) but after significantly more damage has been incurred. Now to know when this was and how it happened  would be interesting. Shot 3 in the original post shows Lts Robert and Teddy Wilson standing on top of War Baby and must be after 3rd Gaza as its unlikely that they would be standing there in full view of the Turkish positions otherwise (Robert Wilson may have won the MC but he wasn't foolhardy). So how did the extra damage occur?
The first of these 3 shots is a bit of a puzzler. It could be Nutty before being knocked forward and down slope. In this case the shot would have to have been taken after 2nd Gaza and before 3rd Gaza when the Redoubt was in Turkish hands

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Legend

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Tim R wrote:


Hey Guys   Here is three more Gaza wrecks All the Best Tim R


These three photos are of the same tank as in photo 1 & 3 at the top of this thread which would make it "War Baby". In photo 1 of this post, the shell damage at the right rear horn (as viewed from the front of the tank) matches that in photo 1. The left rear horn (as viewed from the front of the tank) has the same damage just behind where the sponson was as in the photo of "War Baby" and there is a small shell hole just above the missing gear cover that is also in both shots.


There has been a lot of equipment stripped as Centurion has pointed out, we have a Turkish civilian standing near the wreck, and what appear to be large patches of surface rust on the sides of the tank. I would say these are post-war photos (but still very interesting, nonetheless).



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Legend

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Just had another look at these photos. I was wrong when I said there was a lot of equipment stripped. Everything has been stripped, with the exception of the gunners bicycle seat!

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Legend

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Mark Hansen wrote:


Just had another look at these photos. I was wrong when I said there was a lot of equipment stripped. Everything has been stripped, with the exception of the gunners bicycle seat!

I think we are looking at 3 seperate stages. The first views (1&3) of the original posting show the tracks still mainly in place and British troops around - these will have beem taken almost immediately after 3rd Gaza. The 1st of Tims last set has the track removed and some other changes (including some enlargement of the shell damage at the rear and the removal of the track drive wheels etc) whilst the last two with the civilian (who by the style of his fez is almost certainly Egyptian or just possibly Palestinian and who would have been mortally offended to be called Turkish) have plate etc cut away. Our civilian friend may well have been a local scrap merchant

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Legend

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Centurion wrote:



Our civilian friend may well have been a local scrap merchant



Or second-hand tank dealer. "A lovely piece of history here. Only one previous owner, low mileage, log books available. Just needs some TLC and she's up and running."


P.S.: No insult intended to anybody re: the Turkish reference.



-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 03:51, 2006-03-09

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Field Marshal

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   The attachment is a photo from p.35  of David Fletcher's Osprey book on the Mk.I tank. The caption identifies the tank as HMLS Pincher, though no name is discernable on the vehicle. (An "H" may be visible above the officer's hand.) While I would hesitate to contradict Mr. Fletcher, I wonder if the tank is actually HMLS Sir Archibald. During the approach towards the Turkish positions on April 17, Sir Archibald was struck three times by Turkish shells. One of the shells hit the port horn, likely igniting the petrol tank, since the tank was set on fire and put out of action. At least three of the crew were wounded by burns, two fatally. The wreck was behind British lines at the end of the Second Battle of Gaza on April 19.


   This view of starboard side of a Mk.I male shows damage to the sponson, and to the hull side above the secondary gear cover. The foreward portion of the tank appears discoloured, suggestive of an internal fire. The pattern of damage does not match that recorded for the 3rd Gaza tanks. 



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HMLS Pincher.jpg (56.9 kb)
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Legend

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Rhomboid wrote:


   The attachment is a photo from p.35  of David Fletcher's Osprey book on the Mk.I tank. The caption identifies the tank as HMLS Pincher, though no name is discernable on the vehicle. (An "H" may be visible above the officer's hand.) While I would hesitate to contradict Mr. Fletcher, I wonder if the tank is actually HMLS Sir Archibald. During the approach towards the Turkish positions on April 17, Sir Archibald was struck three times by Turkish shells. One of the shells hit the port horn, likely igniting the petrol tank, since the tank was set on fire and put out of action. At least three of the crew were wounded by burns, two fatally. The wreck was behind British lines at the end of the Second Battle of Gaza on April 19.    This view of starboard side of a Mk.I male shows damage to the sponson, and to the hull side above the secondary gear cover. The foreward portion of the tank appears discoloured, suggestive of an internal fire. The pattern of damage does not match that recorded for the 3rd Gaza tanks. 


I think you are corrct for the following aditional reasons:


This tank has the cased in steering wheel attachement at the rear. As far as one can be sure of these things this appears to have been unique to Sir Archibald amongst the Gaza tanks


Pincher ended up with a shed track on the beach in 3rd Gaza


One thing however stands against this conclusion. Some photos of Sir Archibald show it having a substantial 'luggage rack' fitted to the top of the hull and this is mising from this photo (it could have been removed at some time however).



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Legend

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Here is Sir Archibald with the luggage rack refered to in last post. This is missing from Rhomboid's picture.


 



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sir archie.jpg (23.8 kb)
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Field Marshal

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   The structures on the roof of Sir Archibald appear to be the steel trestles used when the sponsons were unbolted and removed for rail travel.

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Legend

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Rhomboid wrote:


   The structures on the roof of Sir Archibald appear to be the steel trestles used when the sponsons were unbolted and removed for rail travel.

Given the angle the tank is at they would seem to have been attached to the tank. A number of the Gaza tanks appear to have had adhoc fittings presumably devised from what ever was at hand. Pincher in some photos can be seen to have had a number of upright poles on the cab roof. As the tanks were tasked with delivering supplies (ammunition etc.) in addition to the other objectives assigned to them one can only guess that these fittings were to assist in carrying 'stuff' on top of the tank.

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