Landships II

Centurion · Legend

Optical illusion?

J Fullerton · Captain

It does look very small, but it might just be because it's mostly buried. It looks like a battlefield mire or wreck that the Germans have captured, so it shouldn't be a promotional mockup or dummy that could otherwise be the explanation.

Part of the optical illusion could be the shadow cast by the second soldier from the right onto the tank, which makes it look as if the angle on the lower edge of the track is curving back sooner than it really is (if that makes any sense).

-- Edited by J Fullerton at 19:56, 2006-03-10

Centurion · Legend

J Fullerton wrote:

It does look very small, but it might just be because it's mostly buried. It looks like a battlefield mire or wreck that the Germans have captured, so it shouldn't be a promotional mockup or dummy that could otherwise be the explanation. Part of the optical illusion could be the shadow cast by the second soldier from the right onto the tank, which makes it look as if the angle on the lower edge of the track is curving back sooner than it really is (if that makes any sense).-- Edited by J Fullerton at 19:56, 2006-03-10

I wondered if it was part of a film set. The soldiers look rather clean. BTW Can someone tell me what is the English translation for Abbildung? This is a word that pops up if you put the cursor on the right place on the photo.

[OK I've found it myself - illustration. ]

-- Edited by Centurion at 20:52, 2006-03-10

Michel Boer · Brigadier

Would be interesting to see this pic in a higher resolution, to check out what's written in the right and left bottom corners...

Michel.

Thomas Trauner · Corporal

I�m not shure to last detail, but I would identify the writing in the right and in left lower corner as the sign of the foto-shop who published it. I see an "& Co." in the right one, which is a hint for a firm. Unterneath there seem to be "Berlin....."

So this doesn�t help much, I fear.

My personal impression is that this is indeed a optical illusion, caused by the strange angle we look in the tracks of this tank.

(as long all these Germans are not the grand-grandsons of the "Giant guard" of Friedrich I of Prussia in 1725 )

Just my two cents.

Thomas Trauner

-- Edited by Thomas Trauner at 11:44, 2006-03-15

-- Edited by Thomas Trauner at 11:45, 2006-03-15

Centurion · Legend

One unusual aspect is that the photo was supposed to have been taken in mid to late 1918 and yet the tank does not have the red and white recognition stripes on its horns.

Thomas Trauner · Corporal

Centurion, where does this photo come from ?

Thomas Tr.

J Fullerton · Captain

Is it possible that this vehicle was stranded in no-man's-land for an extended period of time, and the front only shifted enough in mid to late 1918 to allow the Germans to get to it? Or are the odds too far against front movement favouring the Germans that late in the war?

Can anyone tell what mark it is?

Mark Hansen · Legend

It looks to be a female Mk II. It has the square ended track adjuster and the early type sponsons. I think the soldier nearest the camera is a lot closer to the camera than his comrades but appears to be next to them. P.S.: Which is why he appears to be large when compared with the tank.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 13:20, 2006-03-18

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

It's possible that they are examining the vehicle in the attachment, captioned as one of the Bullecourt wrecks. It seems to have a similar pattern of damage. After the 1st battle of Bullecourt, the Australian lines would have been too close for a large group to gather like this in daylight. That suggests a date for the photo of sometime after the March 1918 offensive.

The nearest soldier may also be a rather large individual - his stahlhelm seems a bit small for him.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

The nearest soldier may also be a rather large individual - his stahlhelm seems a bit small for him.

I see your point - it looks almost as if he's got it balanced on his head. He also appears to have fairly large feet; those boots would almost look at home on Krusty the clown!

Roger Todd · Legend

Nice work, Rhomboid, I think you've cracked it! I'm convinced that your wreck is the same one as Centurion's, and I've attached both images with three distinctive bits of grot highlighted:

a very round blob of mud with a slight 'tail', making it look almost like a comma
a fainter splash of mud
a very grubby strip of rivets

That soldier must be very tall...

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

Nice work, Rhomboid, I think you've cracked it! I'm convinced that your wreck is the same one as Centurion's, and I've attached both images with three distinctive bits of grot highlighted: a very round blob of mud with a slight 'tail', making it look almost like a comma a fainter splash of mud a very grubby strip of rivets That soldier must be very tall...

Could be, although it seems surprising that blobs of mud would survive un changed in the open, in no mans land for over a year. The tank seems to have sunk down some more although that would not be surprising. The original caption I found with it said Arras 1918 which puts it in approximately the right place at the wrong time but I've become very mistrustful of captions.

Some of the soldaten do seem non standard. The one with a hand resting on the tank horn looks very feminine. perhaps this was the regimental concert party?

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

The soldier holding the idler does look quite youthful, which is remarkable since he is a NCO. A number of the other soldiers look like youngsters as well - a rather sadly poignant photograph.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

Could be, although it seems surprising that blobs of mud would survive un changed in the open, in no mans land for over a year. The tank seems to have sunk down some more although that would not be surprising. The original caption I found with it said Arras 1918 which puts it in approximately the right place at the wrong time but I've become very mistrustful of captions.

I think the grubby strip of rivets is the result of heat from behind which more likely makes it burnt/rusty metal rather than dirty. The fainter splash of mud could be also be scratched paintwork.

One small observation; the Germans at the wreck are possibly the first Germans to have visited it. Many wrecks (799 comes to mind) were quickly stripped of small parts, such as the vision and MG flaps for the bounty on rare metal or enemy equipment. This created problems in trying to salvage and repair captured tanks. The driver's vision flap on this tank looks to be still attached.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

I would agree with your comments, Mark. Of the Bullecourt wrecks, 799 was probably the only one remaining behind German lines at the end of the second battle in May 1917. The Germans retook their lines during the first battle on April 11, but would not have had much opportunity to dismantle the other wrecks in the interval between the two battles. They did not recapture the battlefield again until the March Retreat of 1918. The uniforms of these soldiers, with the prevalence of puttees and Bluse tunics, also suggests a 1918 date for the photo.

Regarding the identity of the vehicle, if it truly is one of the Bullecourt wrecks, then it seems most likely to be 586 (D28), put out of action while attempting to re-cross the German front line trench on April 11.

Centurion · Legend

This appears to be the original source reference (and probalu what appears in the little label at the bottom right hand corner

Zerst�rter britischer Tank bei Arras
Photographie
Arras, April 1918
DHM, Berlin
Do 75/290 I (2022)