Landships II

Centurion · Legend

Franco Japanese puzzle

MCP · Captain

I have no information about St Chamond. But if it may interest you, Japan bought 12 Renault FT 17 armed some with 37mm gun and some with a 6.5mm MG.

Tim R · Hero

Centurion

Hello, I have noticed this and the other post on the St,Chamond Chenilette M21 1923 French Wheel/Track tank, I have been doing some research on this vehicle as well, I have purchased the Armo 1/35 scale version of this tank, and I wanted to find some more information on it.

But sadly I have not found much. As far as the question concerning the Japanese M21, They were exported form France in 1923 to 1924 I have conflicting information on the date and number. One states 4 the other 7. The information is from a Russian and Japanese book, to which I have had those section translated at my local collage. Japan also purchased Ft-17 directly after the First World War. They were designated (Type 79 Ko Gata) and as MCP pointed out 12 were purchased. Also Finland exported 2 M21; they found them extremely unreliable and discarded them. Spain as you stated used them in Morocco. I believe most of you have read this on a few sites concerning the Spanish M21. But I have included it for those of you who have not: This version is from TANKS, (Spain Section.)

7 units were purchased in September 16, 1923 so as to form a tank company. The Spanish soldiers quickly found out that they had been sold pure junk. They must have been purchased without any testing or someone received some "kick back" money because they were a failure from the start. After initial deployment, problems immediately arose with a total failure of one unit's drive system and it had to be returned for repair. After a few days 2 more failed just as the first. Soldiers quickly noted the lengthy time it took to switch from track to wheel. Other faults were thin armor, a weak engine, and a machine gun that could only be fired forward. The interior was prone to excessive heat and driver visibility was very poor. Further, the poor driver had to put up with hot, spent machine gun shell casings hitting his head as they were ejected! These vehicles were quickly retired. It is reported that 2 of these tanks are in a museum in Madrid but this has been disputed as there is no public display of them. Perhaps they are stored in private museums or "out of view" in a public museum.

I have had not luck in contacting any Museum in Madrid on the supposed M21�s in a Museum theory.

Also if you did not know this, The French also produced a M24 and M26, Some sources again state that they were build in small number, while others state they were only built in prototype form. I am not sure on either account. But I have found M24 drawings, which I have attached.

By the way since you are interested in the M21, do you have any information on the St. Chamond Wheel/Track gun tractor? Photo attached.

All the Best

Tim R

-- Edited by Tim R at 19:42, 2006-03-13

Centurion · Legend

Tim

Thanks for the info.

My interest is through a Russian resin and white metal 1;35 kit of the beast made by some firm called Hentyh. I've had this for a while and it has been at the bottom of a removals box in my garage for some time. How old it is I'm not sure but I think the USSR was still around when I bought it at a IPMS UK Nationals (out of a miscellaneous box). I never got round to doing anything with it (in part too much time spent overseas and partly because I couldn't find out anything about it). Now I'm settled I've recovered it and spent significant time doing milliput repairs to the holes in the mouldings (it really is a Soviet era kit). Now I'm ready to assemble but there are significant differences between the kit and the photos (mainly those bulged side doors). The kit I have has recently been offered on e bay with some photos of the completed model (see attached).

I cannot see how the wheels were driven (or steered). I assume steering must have been by changing the speed of the wheels on one side or the other but I cannot see any drive mechanism. If there is any one else out amongst the amazingly erudite readership of this forum knows more please speak. I don't want to go to all the trouble of building bulged doors only to find that flat ones also existed.

Tim R · Hero

I will see what I can find on the wheels, and there respected mechanisms. by the way that is the same kit I have, But on my box it says ARMO, Maybe Armo bought the pattern from Hentyh???

Any way good luck on find information, If you do please share, You have at least one person who is interested.

All the Best

Tim R

Roger Todd · Legend

If you look at Tim's first drawings - M24 B and M24 A - the right hand side seems to show some kind of belt or chain system going from roughly the area of the drive sprocket to the inside of the wheel. This is opposite the end with the track tensioner.

Now, photo M21 B shows the wheel at the end with the track tensioner, i.e. opposite what I suspect are the drive wheels. Is the thin bar in front of the leaf spring suspension going across from the inside of one wheel to the other the cross-bar of an Ackermann steering mechanism?

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

If you look at Tim's first drawings - M24 B and M24 A - the right hand side seems to show some kind of belt or chain system going from roughly the area of the drive sprocket to the inside of the wheel. This is opposite the end with the track tensioner. Now, photo M21 B shows the wheel at the end with the track tensioner, i.e. opposite what I suspect are the drive wheels. Is the thin bar in front of the leaf spring suspension going across from the inside of one wheel to the other the cross-bar of an Ackermann steering mechanism?

Tims drawings are, I suspect, from a book written by Lt Col Rimailho in about 1921 and do not appear to have been built. I've seen a photo of the rear end of the St C 21 and there isn't much room for such a drive. The problem with steering is that there is no room for the front wheels to turn very far, they are too close to the frames holding them.

I've picked up a bit more about the vehicle and two more photos. It appears to have been a co operation between Lt Col Rimailho and FAMH. Two prototypes were built and evaluated by la Commision de Vincennes betwen 1922 and 1923. The vehicle seems originally to have been intended as an artillery tractor and was tried with 75mm, 120 mm and 150 mm cannon. This may explain why some of the vehicles in Tim's photos are unarmed. It was then evaluated as a recce and infantry escort vehicle. The Commission complimented the design on the speed and ease with which the change over from tracks to wheels and vice versa could be made. This conflicts with the Spanish experience. Pehaps someone somehwere was 'peruaded' to write a glowing report to aid the export drive. The French Army declined to have anything to do with the vehicle.

-- Edited by Centurion at 22:42, 2006-03-13

Roger Todd · Legend

Centurion wrote:

The problem with steering is that there is no room for the front wheels to turn very far, they are too close to the frames holding them.

Good point.

Although wait, maybe that's why that frame has such a peculiar 'up-and-over' shape? To give some clearance for the wheels to turn under the top cross piece? Look at the left side of sc21b in Centurion's post before this.

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 17:10, 2006-03-14

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

Centurion wrote: The problem with steering is that there is no room for the front wheels to turn very far, they are too close to the frames holding them. Good point. Although wait, maybe that's why that frame has such a peculiar 'up-and-over' shape? To give some clearance for the wheels to turn under the top cross piece? Look at the left side of sc21b in Centurion's post before this.-- Edited by Roger Todd at 17:10, 2006-03-14

Its the upright piece that could be a problem. I sort of mocked it up with a wheel from the kit and one frame and the top of the wheel seems to catch on one edge depending on which way it was turning. My other puzzle is how would the steering mechanisim reached from inside the cab to the wheels and still allow them to fold up. The British medium Mk I wheel and track tank of the 1920s also had a similar set of frames - does any one know how they were steered?

Roger Todd · Legend

The model might not be accurate, so I'd be cautious about any lessons learnt from that - you need either good plans or good photos.

As for control, I would assume cables - that's how the first Mark Is controlled their tails.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that those must be steering wheels, because there's no other reason why that frame would be the shape it is, other than to allow the wheels to turn under it.

Aleksandr · Captain

Centurion wrote:

Tim Thanks for the info. My interest is through a Russian resin and white metal 1;35 kit of the beast made by some firm called Hentyh.

This is firm called Neptun (НЕПТУН - by cyrillic) from Penza, Russia. You can found again this model on Tankmaster site http://www.thetankmaster.com/english.asp But now in is other firm (May be the same, dut with other name - I don't know) They make some different models for WWI but in 1:35.

Vilkata · Brigadier

I started a thread about this vehicle a few months back perusing the idea that it was a One-Man vehicle.

I recently aquired the book "Tanks And Armored Vehicles" by "Icks and Andrews Duell Sloan and Pearce", published in 1945. It provides a wealth of information, but a fair bit of it is dated or incomplete or missing entirely. Still, it is a good book, especially considering when it was published. In the book, under Full Track vehicles of France, it lists these vehicles, but provides no additional information:

CHENILETTE ST.CHAMOND PILOT - Wheel And Track. Box hull. One man. 3 tons. 1920
CHENILETTE ST.CHAMOND - Same, Production. (Commercial) 1921
CHENILETTE ST.CHAMOND M24 - Similar with turret. 4 tons. 1924
CHENILETTE ST.CHAMOND M26 - Similar to M24. 8 tons. 1926
CHENILETTE ST.CHAMOND M28 - Similar to M21. 1928

Now, accepting that the information may be wrong, or partially wrong, is it possible that the Pilot Model may have been a one-man vehicle?

If anyone can shed some light on these vehicles, it would be greatly appreciated.

I also thought you might find it interesting that the Schneider-Laurent amphibious wheel & track tank was developed as a direct competitor to the Saint-Chamond M.21. The project never advanced far enough to mount weapons on the vehicle, but armament was to be one 37mm gun, one MG, with a crew of 3. The tracks look very similar to the M.21s, and the vehicle even has the M.21s odd little search light on its roof.
http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/schneider-laurent.htm
(Chars Francais says the vehicle was from 1930. I have two books that say 1928.)

There was also an artillery tractor based on the M.21.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/japan/stchamond-guntractor.jpg
(Picture from the Japans Early Tanks section of the TANKS! website)

Thanks in advance!

---Vil.
P.S. In regards to the M.21s doors... The ones in the model are flat, and hinged to the foreward end of the vehicle. The ones in all the pictures are not only bulged, but are hinged at the back. Take a look at these proposed (completed?) spinoffs of the design:
http://www.chars-francais.net/images/archives/st-chamond_chenillette/st-chamond_1921_profil_02.jpg
http://www.chars-francais.net/images/archives/st-chamond_chenillette/st-chamond_1921_profil.jpg
(from http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/saint-chamond_chenillette.htm)
Note that these have flat doors, which are hinged to the front of the vehicle - like the model.

Perhaps the pilot model was a one man vehicle with flat doors, and the first M.21s were aswell - only then, just as with most one-man projects, it was realised there was a need for a second crewmember. So, they put bulged doors to somewhat increase interior space. Perhaps the reason some M.21s having a center MG, and other M.21s having MGs offset to one side was also because of the change from One-Man to Two-Man.

-- Edited by Vilkata at 07:50, 2006-10-28

Centurion · Legend

Only trouble is I think it took two men to do the track to wheels change. It seems that this went.

Crewman lays down wooden blocks
Driver drives onto wooden blocks
Wheels are lowered and locked by crewman
Driver drive off blocks (on tracks until wheels are on ground)
Crewman recovers blocks and stows them, gets back in tank

Of couse one man could do it - mounting or dismounting at each stage but that would be very slow and cumbersome.

Centurion · Legend

Looking further I find a 1932 reference that states that there were 2 prototypes - one 2 man and one 1 man but that as it required the use of five pedals to drive it proved difficult if not impossible for one man to actually drive it on his own.

Vilkata · Brigadier

Thank you very much for your information Centurion! Indeed, the Chars-Francais website says it took the vehicle 10 minutes to switch from Wheels to Tracks. So I think whether it was one-man or two-man vehicle, the method of switching was very badly implemented. In the Schneider-Laurent, the vehicle could be switched from wheels to tracks in about 3 minutes without the crew getting out of the vehicle.

In my research on One-Man Tanks I will mention the Chenilette St.Chamond, however, I suppose I will have to put a disclaimer. While there are a fair number of pictures of the vehicle, I find none that can be easily proven to be the one-man model. There are pictures labelled as showing the prototype, but as you mention there were two prototypes, one-man, and two-man. So, as such, I have no idea what the one-man model looked like. I am just guessing, but it might have had flat doors instead of bulged foors.

Thanks again! Now all that is to be done is find a picture of the one-man beast.

---Vil.

Pody · Lieutenant

Hello Vil !

I have some details on the M21-M28 that might help you with the dimensions
and measurements of your models.
Data are taken from "Heigl's Taschenbuch der Tanks" dated 1935.
Authors are using "(?)" for questionable information

Hope that helps,

with best regards,

Pody

Vilkata · Brigadier

Pody! Thank you very much! That is some fascinating stuff!

So apparently there were projects for an M.24, 26, and 28!

Extremely interesting!

Thank you again!

---Vil.

Edit:

Translated the stats page using Alta-Vista... The translations are obviously muddled, but you get the idea. This confirms that the first M.21 was INDEED a One-Man vehicle. It also confirms the suspicion that under wheeled power, the front wheels provided the steering. Some of the information on that sheet is missing, so I only translated the available information.

Crew: in the first test sample I man. in second 2 the men.
Armament - 1 M.G. in front of tank.
Armor - 11 mm max.
Speed on wheels - 28 km/h
Speed on tracks - 6 km/h
Special services - rises - 30�
Exceeds 1.40m - wades to 0.70m
Weight - 3.5t
Engine - Water cooled 2-cylinder motor.
Steering: On wheels by means of steering wheel on front wheels.
On crawler-type vehicles by means of pedals over steering gears on crawler-type vehicles.
Drive assembly - semirigid chaining drive assembly
Length - 3.61m
Width - 2,08 m
Height - 1,93 m
Other: Drive assembly change of wheels turned around on crawler-type vehicles in 10 minutes by machines strength, only after ramp on suitable ramp for the crawler-type vehicles.
Type M.24 is by the rotating turret 20 cm more highly the weight 3,6 t
Type M.26 is 1,98 m highly by full-motor drive assembly change with Williams Janney transmission weighs the vehicle however 4,2 t

Sorry for the shabby translation, but at least it gives us "Only English" speakers something to work with.

---Vil.

-- Edited by Vilkata at 05:27, 2006-10-29

-- Edited by Vilkata at 05:32, 2006-10-29

kkfj1 · Major

I am almost sure that China didn't buy this.