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Post Info TOPIC: Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902 heavy gun - Argentine Army


Colonel

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RE: Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902 heavy gun - Argentine Army
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Your aggressive, pontificating manner towards me belies the fact that you "want to share information: Just thhe opposite: you seem to resent any point of view that differs from yours..and that is not cricket..Yes, Herr General's data (from Krupp records, ) does not list the 150 mm howitzers, neither does it list the 12 pounders that were purchased and employed during the Paraguayn War 1865-1870)

But then again, neither does the Schhaeffer book (Deustche Militarhilfe am Sud Amerima : Militar und Rustunginteressen in Argentinien, Bolivia und Chile vor 1914) which does list, however the 12 Krupp mod. 1911 150 mm L.11 used by the  Argentine Army..

The 130 mm guns; Riccheri (see General Pita's biography) was a very efficient and probe individual: by shrewd bargaining he saved the nation 5 million gold pesos (US&.96,5 cents or 48 shillings) and was able to obtain 18 batteries of artillery mover what the budget allowed (108 guns)  A U.S. Military Intelligence Report on the 130 mm quotes an Argentine officer referring to them as "the guns Ricchieri was given) Had an order for the Krupp 75 mm 1905s being given, this would have been reported in the documents that Dick used or the ones Schaeffer did . In fact.. If you live in Buenos Aires, whu don't you take a trip to the Ciuadela Army Museum and see the one oiece they have on display with a sign that clearly states they were modified in Argentine rsenals.Surely I it is an easy thing to do..Do it and see, it's a n easy solution..

Quite franklym,given your manners (and the lack thereof) if you had seen General Dick;s book months ago, you would have mentioned in your usual tyle: you would have  cackled loudly  like a hen that just laid an egg. As you did when you posted your long delayed reply. You didn't reply earlier because you didn't know about it..It wa the same style you employed in Zona Militar, When I had a friend upload photographs and replies . to your assumptions...Til he got tired of it and erased all the photos and messages we both sent.

His comments" This fellow just argues for the sake of arguments-I agreed......

 



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Colonel

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s590.photobucket.com/user/patricios/media/Krupp%20de%20150%20mm%20L.14%20obus%202%202.jpg.html"><a rel=i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss341/patricios/Krupp%20de%20150%20mm%20L.14%20obus%202%202.jpg">

Here is a pic of Krupp 150 mm L.14 mod. 1911 c. 1920s

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Major

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Hi

 

Forgive me, but I do not treat you to be a chicken, so the one that attacks me is you.

I just indicate that you knowing of the existence of this contract, and do not to show and try to present that operation as a "gift".

Should re read the reasons of your EXPULSION of the forum of ZONAMILITAR

 

To insist that a "canon of siege" can not be at the same time a "heavy cannon" is to ignore what makes it different from a field cannon or a howitzer.

The "siege guns" were designed to fire over the parapets of the fortifications and their most relevant physical feature was their raised barrel (a feature our 130mm had already lost).

In addition, there were Krupp siege guns of 80mm, 105mm, 120mm and 150mm and up to 210mm in other provenances (for example the 8 " shown in Landships II).

 

That is to say, there were "light" and "heavy" siege cannons in the same way as there were (and there are today) light and heavy mortars.

 

 I visit again the Historical Museum of the Citadel (Museo Historico del Ejercito en Ciudadela – Buenos Aires) and I can assure you that there is no Krupp that can be a 1905 model in the whole Museum (neither in the Artillery Hall nor in the Artillery Park), and the only one that had a sign that was reformed in Argentina Arsenal is this ...

 

 

and to confirm data and dimensions of the Krupp 130mm L26 “Argentine Model 1902”,

 

First they measured their caliber

 

In the photo above it is seen that the measurement of the wooden conical cap is 132mm. So its real caliber could be 130mm but could never be 135mm.

What is clear is that its real caliber is 130mm and not 135mm like the cannons used by the German Army.

 

But there is another way to prove it. Measuring the barrel length 

 

As you can see, this length is 338cm (around 133 inch)

 If I divide 3380mm / L26 calibers = 130mm

 

Which confirms its real caliber.       

 

Engraving of National Emblem

In the second picture you can read

SISTEMA KRUPP “MODELO ARGENTINO 1902”

n°5  FRIED KRUPP A.G

CIERRE SISTEMA MAXIM NORDENFELT

 

There is no doubt that it is a different weapon than the ones used by the Germans (is a real “Argentine Model”), different caliber, different length of the barrel, different type of breech block, and the marks of the breech, and in the barrel. It is very difficult to have been a gift with so many conditions imposed by Argentine Government.

 

And read correctly

...."Nor does it mention any purchase of the 150 mm model 1904 howitzer, which is described as possible in this forum"......

 

And it's not from the Internet .......

 

It's from the museums…….

Regards

Eduardo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Colonel

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Forgive me, but I do not treat you to be a chicken, so the one that attacks me is you.

I Beg to differ. In the last message alone you accuse me of being dishotest-If that does not constitute aggression what is?

As stated, the guns have been referred to as a gift in intelligence reports that I have- and which I will try tp print later this week.I am having some difficulty with uploading photos in this forum-and a friend of mine will take a look at the system..Also tried tp puload one of the Krupp 150 mm L.14 mod. 1911s but failed


Should re read the reasons of your EXPULSION of the forum of ZONAMILITAR

 

Again! if this is not aggression , what is it?

I never participated in Zona Militar, a friend of mine that did (Binnerbini) just posted my  letters and photos (with a proper water mark) until he became disgusted with that forum, erased all his photos and mine and left OF HIS OWN ACCORD

To insist that a "canon of siege" can not be at the same time a "heavy cannon" is to ignore what makes it different from a field cannon or a howitzer.

You in the other hand very apparently  ignore the fact that the category "heavy gun"among the main powers refers mostly to guns that are in the 150-155 mm range.

The Argentine Amy officially referred to the Krupp 130mm as a siege gun (so did the various European publications)  I( From the 1930s until at least the 1950  referred to 105 mm cannon  and 155 hows as "Heavy Artillery:, and to the 155 mm cannon and 220 mm Mortar as "Very Heavy" Artillery:

 

 I visit again the Historical Museum of the Citadel (Museo Historico del Ejercito en Ciudadela – Buenos Aires) and I can assure you that there is no Krupp that can be a 1905 model in the whole Museum (neither in the Artillery Hall nor in the Artillery Park), and the only one that had a sign that was reformed in Argentina Arsenal is this ...

Try to Ask one of the senior officers in charge : One of them sent me a photo back in 2014, that I lost .last year when my computer crashed..There was a Krupp mo. 1905 next to the Krupp mod. 1909 75 mm L.30 in the Muséo de armas de La Nación......which I noticed 9but did not photograph!) with such a sign..I did not notice the sign years later,when I noted that the sign in some of the mchine guns had been changed. I pointed this out to one of the caretakers, a retired N.C.O and he shrugged "It's the children! you know.."

é


When the Nordenfelt breech-lock was  considered in the 1890s. the Argentine Army sent one of its Krpp 75 mm mountain guns to Europe to determine its practicality, when the test proved successful. they converted the rest in of the older models in Argentine Arsenals (NOTE : the 1895,the 1898 field  guns and the 1896 and 1898 mountain guns were equipped with these breech mechanisms by Krupp in Germany whe-they were built like that !) The Argentines did not send 100 (out of 180 model 1898 field gns back to Germany-tthat would have been expensive!  . What makes you think the Arsenal did not have the capability to adapt a shield ad a hydraulic   brake? This particular detail is not generally known in  Argentina. in fact I received a number of photos from a member of the Artillery Commission that was curious about them, as it was news to him...


The actual German caliber is actually 128  (5.1 inch)  just as the real caliber of the Krupp 150 mm  is 149.1 mm. They were described as 130 mm just as in Argentina they referred to the 78 mm Krupp as the "80 mm". But look at Dick.s work. pag 541 he efers both to the 105 mm L.35 and the 130 mm L.26 as "de sitio"
 

As far as the Krupp mod. 1911 150 mm L. 14, I refer you to Reseña Historica Y Orgánica del Ejército Argentino ((Ed) Col. Fued Nellar (Círculo Militar, Bibliotéca del Oficial, Buenos Aires, 3 Vols, 1971) Vol. 3

It mentions that 3 batteries (12 guns) of this model weer purchase. There are references to them in the Memoria del Ministerio de Guerra as well


 



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One correction and addition  to my last messsage: Two Krupp guns were sent back to Europe to test the Nordenfelt breech block: one to Krupp in Germany and the other to Nordenfelt, in England. The conversion of 160 of the older Krupp 75s was undertaken in Argentina ref

Dufur, Lionel Osvaldo, Coronel, Ferrau de Capelli , Fanny Dr, "Comisiones Miliraees Argentinas en Europa ", Congreso Nacional de Historia Militar, 20-22 November 1996, published in Anales del Insituto Argentino de Historia Militar (Buenos Aires, 2 vols. ) Vol. 2. pag.1061

 

So as you can see, the Arsenal ,which had even produced  small quantities of a very promising design, the 78,5 mm Viejobueno Field gun  in the 1880s was well equipped to undertake the conversion of the Krupp mod. 1898s....

As far as the Krupp 150 mm mod. 1904: only one battery (four guns) was purchased as far as  I know..

To return to the Krupp documents: they do not include a few items, such as the cannon Argentina procured under the table for certain neighbouring countries..but that is a minir point:

The large orders were included, not only in the book by Dick, but in the book by Schaeffer (who does not mention the 150 Mod. 19041904 models.. But the types are always mentioned in the Memorias, or Reports of the Argentine of War for the particular years, and a very brief (including  maximum range)  list of the equipment available was contained in a booklet entitled "What the Infantru Officer Should Know About artillery".....



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Thursday 5th of January 2017 06:58:44 PM

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The photo of the Krupp mod. 1911 150mm L.14s. c. 1922 that I had promised....



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 6th of January 2017 08:24:48 PM



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 6th of January 2017 08:48:01 PM

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A 130 mm gun in August 1923 (from a crumbling issue of the Argentine "Revista Militar". This is an advertisement for Forward Drive (FWD) trucks....



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 6th of January 2017 09:09:04 PM



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 6th of January 2017 09:21:48 PM

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Colonel

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Krupp 130s middle of 1917....



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A Krupp 130 L.26 mod. 1902 taken c. 1910 at the National Racetrack, the Escuela de Tiro ( as the later day Escuela de Artilllería was the known ) on parade.  At  least a battery of these funs served with the  Escuela de Artilllería into the early 1930s, when the Schneider material began to arrive.



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 7th of January 2017 07:07:23 AM

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Hi

 

It confuses the “Museo Histórico del Ejercito” of “Ciudadela city” with the “Museo de Armas de la Nación "Tte Gral Pablo Riccheri" of the “Circulo de Oficiales”

I went to the first, and in the second it is the only Krupp 75mm Mod.1896 modified in Essen- Germany in 1905 for the Argentine Army.

The “Museo Histórico del Ejercito” of Ciudadela depends on the Argentine Army, and the “Museo de Armas de la Nación "Tte Gral Pablo Riccheri" is a civil society that depends on the Circle of Officers.

 

You can change the signboard but you can not change what Krupp engraved on the barrel jacket or what is engraved on the breech block. And much less that can they do it the "children" !!!!

 

The real caliber of the "Argentine Model 1902" is 130mm ,and was measured

So the current German caliber could be higher or lower, but at that time the most similar German cannon it was the  real caliber 135mm, the 13cm L35 K09   . What clearly shows that the "Argentine Model 1902" was a cannon designed by Krupp for our Army.

If the actual caliber had been 128mm, it would be better to note that small difference in measuring the length of the barrel since that difference would multiply by 26, which would give a difference of 52mm, meaning that the total length should be 3328mm, far from the 3380mm  measured.

 

In the book "Historia Argentina Contemporanea 1862-1930"  that you recommended, talks about Heavy Howitzers of 10.5cm "....... That is to say, at some point if they ( the 130mm) were considered "heavy weapons" (in his time it was really the heaviest weapon of the Argentine Army)

Yourself recognize that the rating of "heavy" changed over time, and the designation of Krupp130mm L26 Argentine Model 1902 corresponds to a qualification of 1928 ....  That reassures him ????

 

When it was thought to improve the 75mm Krupp by changing the Krupp sliding block  system by the Maxim Nordenfelt breech in 1890, which reduced the loading operations of the ammunition from 7 to 3 movements, and which greatly increased the cadence to fire, had to decide whether the transformation was to be complete or partial. Complete meant to change the carriage to resist the higher propulsion loads, also it was necessary to increase the capacity and quantity of carriages of ammunition  to take advantage of the speed of fire, and all this was discarded.

Only the breech block was changed, an operation that proved difficult in our arsenals, and combined with the failures of the Krupp1898 model led Colonel Riccheri to an interpellation of the Senate in 1903

 

It was also difficult to recondition and control all new and modified guns.

I do not think it would be possible for our Arsenals to accept a greater challenge only 2 years later.

Fundamentally because in this case (adding a long recoil brake system) involved whether or if to redesign the carriage.

Remember that the brake did not have physical space to be placed in the Krupp 1898  


Regards

 

Eduardo



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Major

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Hi

 

 

In addition, I can assure you that the famous photo that Mr. Bunner says is "hers”

…."Your" pictures include one of mine that I uploaded in another Forum years ago.  .The one that shows the Escuela de Tiro parading in the National Racing Track around 1900,"……

…”You already have one of my pictures of the Argentine Krupp 130 mm siege gun,the one which was taken an the National Hipodrome..As they say in Spanish,"Para muestra,solo hace falta un botón" (that's all the proof you need”…..

 

Is not the only one of that parade, but there are better ones and in more detail, since that parade of May 25, 1913 in the Hipodromo of Palermo was the First Registered Air Parade in Argentina.

 

Photo of the carriage

Biblioteca Nacional Mariano Moreno(Republica Argentina)
http://trapalanda.bn.gov.ar/jspui/han...

 

There is also at least one movie from that parade.

In other words, there are many buttons for the sample ...

In the thesis of the Gral Dick are the contracts of the guns of 10.5cm L35 (20 in 1883 and 10 in 1889) of which I still have not been able to see any photograph (that of militatiarg.com is seen as a brochure , The background and all reference of the photo has been deleted, and does not appear to be of the Argentine Army).

I also found in the magazine "Caras y Caretas" Nº 900 of the January 1, 1916 that were used in the maneuvers in  1916

 

There is no doubt of its existence but still no photo appear

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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I do not confuse anything at all! Since I have been to both Museums several times. and I've stayed at the CSrculo de Oficiales during my last visit o Buenos Aiires in 2005..

 

I went to the first, and in the second it is the only Krupp 75mm Mod.1896 modified in Essen- Germany in 1905 for the Argentine Army.

 

This must be one of the two  cannon sent to Europe that are mentioned in the bibliography in a previous message of mine..

 

You can change the signboard but you can not change what Krupp engraved on the barrel jacket .

While this is true, it might explain the fate of the sign that identified the photo I was sent..

 

The real caliber of the "Argentine Model 1902" is 130mm ,and was measured

I corresponded with Franz Kosar, a gunner and artillery expert and met with the late Colonel Jarret (Aberdeen Proving Grounds) and discussed the various differentiations in caliber designations rather than in actual calibers: The Krupp 130 was not designed specifically for Argentina, though it was modified for Argentina. Do you really think a manufacturer like Krupp with 25.00o workers is going to waste space, time and effort just to built 13 (or 12 guns) for any country? and that Krupp will complicate matters by making different calibers only a few milimiters larger than the oher Please!

So the current German caliber could be higher or lower, but at that time the most similar German cannon it was the  real caliber 135mm, the 13cm L35 K09   . What clearly shows that the "Argentine Model 1902" was a cannon designed by Krupp for our Army.

If the actual caliber had been 128mm, it would be better to note that small difference in measuring the length of the barrel since that difference would multiply by 26, which would give a difference of 52mm, meaning that the total length should be 3328mm, far from the 3380mm  measured.

Again, you seem to ignore the simple fact that a 130 mm shell cannot be fired through a 130 mm barrel,. The atual caliber is determined by the width of the base of the shell! not the BORE of the barrel)

 Do not be confused by the "heavy" categories employed by the Argentine Army:(or any other South American Natin0 Sometimes heavy, in their terminology simply refers to  the weight o the tube (e.g. the Krupp They do not correspond to similar categories in Major Armies. For example, , as Dick mentions in pag.425  The Krupp 75 mm L.24 models  1880, 1884, and 1895 were referred to in Argentina as "light cannon" but the Krupp 75 mm L.28 they considered a "heavy cannon" (and May I add Brazil as well...And by the way: on pag. 427 Dick mentiones the acquisition of the 12 Krupp  150 mod. 1911 as Heavy hows. If you look at page 541 of the same book, you'll see that the 105 mm l.35 and the 130 mm L.26 are rated as sieg guns (caÁones de sitio)

 

 

the book "Historia Argentina Contemporanea 1862-1930"  that you recommended, talks about Heavy Howitzers of 10.5cm "....... That is to say, at some point if they ( the 130mm) were considered "heavy weapons" (in his time it was really the heaviest weapon of the Argentine Army)

So does Dick in his book (page 427) but I belive this refers to the weight of the tube (see how thick it was) rather than the actual category by caliber, which was medium.....

 

Yourself recognize that the rating of "heavy" changed over time, and the designation of Krupp130mm L26 Argentine Model 1902 corresponds to a qualification of 1928 ....

Read my answer correctly. I said that Argentine artillery designations did not correspond to that of the major powers,where guns like the 155 how  would not  be considered heavy but medium

 That reassures him ???? Who is him???????

 

 Only the breech block was changed, an operation that proved difficult in our arsenals, and combined with the failures of the Krupp1898 model led Colonel Riccheri to an interpellation of the Senate in 1903

Read the DIARIO DE SESIONES correctly-this was raised by oponents of Roca (and therefore Ricchieri)  as a political move.. nothing else. Out of 180 mod. 1898 recive, 5 or six showed defects. In Ricchieri's own words, nothing that could not be remedied by simply filing down the protruding pats)-Note that he said 5 or six..They were delivered with unusual haste because war with Chile seemed inminent.. So a few guns required minor repairs   and that does not constitute a failure

 



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Colonel

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In addition, I can assure you that the famous photo that Mr. Bunner says is "hers” ( Don't you means "HIS"   evileyeevileyeevileye )

Get an English  Dictionary will you? perhaps you'll learn to match subjects with the proper adjectives;. Bruner is my Nick. And the photo I uploaded was given to my friend Arne Brunner, who posted it in te INTERNET c. 2002 among others. It came from a book I purchased in Germany. What I said that the photo was from my collection....

 

The other photo I mentioned was the one of the 130mm s in 1917 firing..that I just uploaded. (I am still having trouble with photobucket!)

 

Is not the only one of that parade, but there are better ones and in more detail, since that parade of May 25, 1913 in the Hipodromo of Palermo was the First Registered Air Parade in Argentina.

I am glad to hear it.. As they say in German" We are not the owners of the whole puzzle-but each of us has different pieces...

 

 



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-- Edited by Brunner88 on Thursday 19th of January 2017 07:32:57 PM

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".....



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Thursday 5th of January 2017 06:58:44 PM



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