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Post Info TOPIC: MK IV towing a gun....
SMK


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MK IV towing a gun....
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Hello

In the book  "Tanks and Trences " by David Fletcher,

On page 94 you can find a photograph of a MK IV towing a 5.9 inch  german gun, as said in the caption.

I can show this photograph  from a scan, but I am not sure this is allowed  here.....(copyrights ?)

My Question :

 Could a MK IV tow a gun ?  and if so, how did they tow it ....?

Did they use chains  or something, since the MK IV has no towing hook...?
This photograph doesn't show how the gun was connected to the tank.

Are there more examples of a MK IV towing guns ?
I know about the cargo sledges, where the tanks were equiped with a special towing assembly on the roof of the tank.

greetz 

Ronald 

 



-- Edited by SMK on Sunday 12th of June 2016 10:17:49 AM

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Lieutenant-Colonel

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Mk.IV Intimidate towing gun www.criticalpast.com/video/65675027524_British-officers_tractors-in-field_soldiers-on-tractors_soldiers-near-a-tank
Towing devices are not visible, unfortunately

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Regards

Denis

SMK


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Hello Denis

This film fragment could be the same event  as where the photograph was taken.
From a friend I got another picture Which  he found on the Armorama site, with (it seems) the same gun  (only wih a camo net over it )

see attachement

It's a pity it doesn't show the way the gun was towed  ,but there was no limber used...
and on the film it's clear which tank it is.

I am thinking of using this idea for a diorama.

Sadly this particular gun is not available in 1/35  so maybe I use the  Takom 21cm  Krupp Morser

 

Thanks very much !!!!!

 

greetz

Ronald

 

 



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General

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Depending on whether the gun had a split trail or not, it could either have each trail chained to the shackle points on the i/s of the horns or attached to a chain between the two horns in the latter case?

 



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Hero

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The film depicts a captured 15cm Ringkanone, either of German, Belgian, or Russian origin....all of which sported a traditional carriage/trail of a fortress piece.



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SMK


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Could this be a solution ?

Found it on the panzerserra website as part of his Mk IV airship tug

 

 



-- Edited by SMK on Saturday 18th of June 2016 01:51:43 PM

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Colonel

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Until I see a clearer picture of the back of the airship tug I doubt that this is what it looked like.

Also, why should such a modification be needed only to tow a gun? I'd suggest that it worked the same way as towing the sledges as tenders did. But I don't have a prove.

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SMK


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Hello Thorst

As far as I know

the sledges were towed by tanks with a special towing block on the roof of the tank

 

scratch built block.jpg

On the  the pictures this block is not visible on the roof of the tank which pulls the gun 

So there must be another  way the gun was pulled .

 

greetz

Ronald 



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Colonel

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Ronald, you are right. I should not post when I am tired. Sorry. Please forget it.


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SMK


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Thorst,

Don't worry 

initially I had the same thoughts, but only when I checked the picture  on the presence of the towing block  and found out it wasn't there , I knew there had to be another way.

and I am always happy that members on this site  take the time to think about ,and answer my questions !

 

There are not many pictures of the airshiptug, but at one of this pictures (in my opion) a horizontal bar between the aft trackhorns is visible.....

 

greetz Ronald

 

 



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Legend

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I don't think the airship tug arrangement is a good guide. This tank did not go into action that day expecting that at the end of it it would be expected to tow a gun. So the towing arrangement must use pre-existing tow points, not some new arrangement. Should not be difficult to wrap chain around the trail and attach to the tank.

Gwyn

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I still don't believe in this arrangement of the airship towing Mark IV.

I did a quick overlay of the photo with my CAD model (basic dimensions are based on official drawings and measurements on surviving vehicles), and I can confirm that the bright horizontal feature on the photo coincides with the lower edge of the fuel tank's armor plate (or the fuel tank itself). See the screenshot attached. So I rather suggest that the feature on the photograph is an illusion.

 

I am very interested in this particular tank (the airship tug) myself, but my approach would be that it is a very standard Mark IV, and every alteration must be clearly documented by photographs until I believe it. This bar is too speculative in my opinion.

 

Best regards,

Thorsten



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SMK


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Gwyn, Thorst

Reading your reactions , you both are proberbly right .

Thanks for your input , I am going to look what I can do with the regular tow points and chains.

Greetz Ronald




-- Edited by SMK on Monday 20th of June 2016 07:54:09 AM

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SMK


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Hello again.

 

Still searching for how the gun was towed  I may have found  the solution .

Watching the movie  from the reaction above I saw something strange on the front of the tank.

when I looked closer I saw it was a towing cable attached to the forward towing lug of the tank....and   going aft over the cab of the tank.

(See attachment 1 ).

On the other photograph posted here  ( the back of the tank)  you can see a towing cable comming from the front .

(Attachment 2).

On the picture in the Tanks and Trenches book there is also a cable comming over the tank and there is load on it ( The weight of the gun ?).

(attachment 3)

Can it be possible the gun was towed by a cable  comming from the front of the tank ?

 

greetz

Ronald

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by SMK on Wednesday 29th of June 2016 08:59:38 AM

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SMK


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as said in the previous post, this is the way I think the gun was towed.....

See attachment 1&2

It is a 21 cm Krupp Morser towed by a Mk IV female (in progress)

 

pls feel free to comment

 

greetZ Ronald

 



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Legend

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I think your ideas have considerable merit. I was curious enough to see if the attachment of the towing

cable to the front of the Mark IV was visible in the film clip. It seems to be (attached) - the towing cable also seems to run along the right

hand side of the roof - which makes sense - so it doesn't get tangled up in the engine exhaust.

Regards,

Charlie

 



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SMK


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Charlie,

Thanks  for your Reply

 

To be honest , I did  notice the towing cable , a friend of mine (Willem Visser , also member of this site) made the connection  to the towing of the gun .

greetz Ronald.

 



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General

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The rope/cable would have to be fixed at the rear to stop it moving sideways when the gun and the tank moved across rough ground or turned a corner.



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if the cable towing the gun was connected via the front as the tank moved off the cable would become taut this would lift the gun trail up to the height of the tank lowering the muzzle of the gun. however we don't see this happening. that said some MK IV had towing shackles at the rear see this photo of Flirt II



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Lieutenant

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Lodestar had an attachment for towing shackles further back as seen here



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SMK


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Tonys /Druid Ian

Thanx for your input

You both have  a point

I checked the filmfragment  and as you said the angle of the gunbarrel did not change as the tank pulled up and tension was set on the tow cable ...

but shoudn't that happen also, when you pull it with chains?
because there is also some slack when chains are used.....

And what is the use  ,and where is the tension comming from as you look to the towing cable......

I made a modification to the tank to the layout you suggested .....

I really don't know which is more plausible

greetz Ronald

 

 

 



-- Edited by SMK on Monday 4th of July 2016 05:20:27 PM

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Colonel

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SMK, your answer/solution seems highly plausible.

Grant

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Lieutenant

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that looks like a workable solution to me.

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SMK


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Hello

On internet I found another photograph  of the MKIV pulling a gun

Seeing this picture  I am convinced the way the gun was pulled was by a towing cable going over the roof of the tank .

 

cambrai-cambrai-1917bw-0002.jpg

 

greetz

Ronald

 

 

 



-- Edited by SMK on Wednesday 12th of October 2016 09:17:23 PM

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Hero

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On reading what others have said and looking at the photos, my best guess would be that it would a combination of chain between the rear shackles and the front tow line over the roof.

Tony's idea of a chain between the rear shackles looks a good bet, my guess is that the cable over the roof is the crew improvising with the front tow cable to take the slack out of the chain and help keep the limber off of the ground.

 



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SMK


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I know this subject is not really that important , but I do like a good discussion  smile.........

I don't think there was an additional chain attached to the rear tow shackels .

If the gun was attached to such a chain, (as suggested) the tow cable along the roof of the MK IV  should be kind of static and also the towing point of the gun should be more or less at a" fixed" point.

And if I check the pictures........ it wasn't !

cambrai-cambrai-1917bw-0002.jpg

 

1916160?AWSAccessKeyId=1XXJBWHKN0QBQS6TG

 If you compare the position of the roof cable in the two pictures, there is a considerable difference in the position, which is not possible if the additional chain was used.

Also check the position of the gun in relation to the tank (upper picture)

You can see that the gun is positioned at the right aft  side of the tank which is in my opinion is also not possible when  the additional chains were used.

 

Again I may be completely wrong...... 

 

please, let me know what you think.

 

greetz

Ronald

 



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Hello Ronald,
you wrote: Again I may be completely wrong...... 

But what if you are completely right! I believe the story.

What do I see: The tank is now pulled from its firing position in the Woods. The help from a tank is asked and the tank pulls the gun to solid ground where other means of transportation can take the gun.
So I believe that the cable is running from the front of the tank (towing hook) and is attached to the gun. By its weight it will hover a little bit above the ground and when the tank stops it will sit on the ground. There is no risk that the gun will fall over when you consider the impressive speed of the Mark IV.
So, keep to your story. In am a believer

Best regards from Holland,
Willem



-- Edited by Willem Visser on Friday 14th of October 2016 08:16:41 AM

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