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Post Info TOPIC: 15cm L/14 Howitzer- the last Krupp “Argentine Model”


Major

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15cm L/14 Howitzer- the last Krupp “Argentine Model”
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Hi

 

Krupp 15 cm L/14 "Argentine Model 1911"- Field Howitzer

 

This is another artillery gun hardly known outside of Argentina.

In many web pages confuse his existence with a supposed Argentine Model 1904, from which we have no evidence that it has arrived in our country (it could be that negotiations for purchase  will start in that year??)

It is evident that there is a significant mistake

They may have confused this purchase order with the 75mm Krupp manufactured in 1905 ??

 

 Photo to magazine “Caras y Caretas”

 

Considering to the 15cm Heavy Field Howitzer 02 ("schwere Feldhaubitze" - sFH02) is the "father" of the family of the 'modern' howitzers German 15cm (which entered service in the German Army in 1903) and from the export models such as the M-1906 of Bulgaria, the M-1906 of Sweden, the "howitzer L / 14"  Turkish and the howitzer that was exported to Japan as "150mm Type 38" (model 1905) , we must assume that the Argentine Model 1911 it is also an evolution of the same, but not at all like those mentioned howitzers

Although its design is unique, it is more like at the Krupp 15cm M-1913 for export (not to be confused with 15cm SFH-13 (schwere Feld-Haubitze), which entered service in the summer of 1913, and it was the standard howitzer of the German army during World War I.

The Krupp 15 cm M-1913, also was bought by Italy in 1914 and shortly before the start of the war, Ansaldo and Vickers-Terni had acquired the license for the manufacture of the howitzer, which was classified in Italy as Italian 149mm Obice Krupp da 149/12 modello 1914 or Howitzer 149/50 A (Ansaldo). There was also a copy made by Skoda, used by the Austro-Hungarian army during the war under the designation 15cm Feldhaubitze M.14 y M.14/16.

Krupp produced another 15cm Model 1909 for Belgium (el Belge 149mm obús Krupp mod.1909, delivered in 1911).-

But our 15cm L14 not look like at any of them.

 

I did not found any Mod.1911 preserved, but there is good official information.

Read:

1.  1 -  “Atlas del obús de Campaña de 15cm.L/14 Mod.Argentino 1911.”

      Redactado por : Mayor D.Adolfo Baisi – 1913 (Biblioteca Ministerio de Guerra)

2.  2“Descripción del Material de Obuses de Campaña de 15cm L14, Mod911”

      Manual impreso en los Talleres Gráficos del Instituto Geográfico Militar, en 1923

 

For its design and modifications, the Krupp 15cm Argentine Model 1911 was a modern howitzer for that time, they had equilibrators, and his brake-recovery was hydropneumatic, much more modern even the Krupp SFH-13 Germans who had hydraulic buffer and springs and only in 1915 was modified to use the hydropneumatic brake, and instead was on the 149mm Krupp level Italian mod.14.

 

 

 MWAA photo, for ZONAMILITAR where these howitzers are next to the classic 75mm Krupp, taken from maneuvers of "5 of infantry"

 

In short, the Krupp 150mm Model L14 Argentino 1911, was totally different from others howitzers Krupp of that gauge it is not similar to those who used the Germans, or export models that were manufactured for the Italians, Belgians, etc.

 

Its actual gauge was 149.1 mm and used a breech block type Ehrhardt, and his equilibrators were protected with a cover in front of the shield (as seen in the photo above).

If at Mr. Nuyt he found it striking that the Krupp de Caballería de 75mm Mod Argentino 1909 modified in Argentina with the help of Bofors had the center of rotation of the over-carriage at the back, surely he will call much more its attention when you know that this howitzer have the center of rotation of the over-carriage on the right side of the gun carriage (of boxtrail type)

To transport it could remove the barrel back and fix it on the moorings.

 

Had an effective range of 6550m and his projectiles had a system of fuze time when  it passed   period required for this distance is reached,  exploded.

Apparently the most commonly used projectile was the shrapnel, weighing 41kg and measuring 45cm in length

Could use a projectile which they called "Granada-mine" and had 67,5cm in length !!!!!

For the propellant charge was used a cartridge of 14,7cm long, and you could choose from six different loads

 

They were used in sections composed of

 

• Four howitzers with their limbers

• Six cars carrying ammunition

• An observatory carriage

• A car battery (workshop / health)

• A carriage Forge

(There are drawings of almost all of them)

 

 

They were replaced by Schneider 155mm howitzers Argentine Model 1928 (those that the Argentine government "had paid but did not know who had purchased" as a clueless forum user said…..)

 

Regards 

 

Eduardo

 

 

 

 



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Legend

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I can't see that the Argentinian howitzer is unique - it looks like the M1905 sold to the Ottomans and the M1906 sold to Sweden.

The M1914 was also sold to Bulgaria.

For the Turkish howitzer - http://landships.info/landships/artillery_articles.html?load=artillery_articles/15cm_Positionhaubitze.html

Regards,

Charlie

 



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Major

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Hi

 

The differences are to big

But what stands out most is that both the Krupp 150mm M1905 Ottoman (top photo) and the Swedish M1906 have an  boxtrail chassis (see the lower picture of the Swedish M1906) where are located the trunnions, and  where can rotate  the U-shaped support (in which the transverse aim pivot is located)

 

 

 

While in the Argentinian howitzer, the carriage is similar to that of the howitzers later 1909/1913, and it had  equilibrators covered by a protection (one on each side of the barrel), highlighted in red in the following plate

 

 

 

On the carriage was installed the over-cureña rotating (called "afuste superior") and that had in its part superior the trunnions (as it is seen in the second plate)

In this second plate is seen the equilibrators without its cover (inside the red oval)

 

The sheets are from the handbook “Descripción del Material de Obuses de Campaña de 15cm L14, Mod911”.-

 

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

 



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Major

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Hi

 

But the strangest thing in this howitzer was that his aiming correction system in azimuth was eccentric. 

Is not rotated centered under the barrel, if not he turn on a pivot that was mounted on the right side piece of the gun carriage, and passed through the right side of the over-carriage, just below the trunnion marked D.-

Whereas the left side of the over-carriage moves on a circular sector as seen in the plane below,

(Below the trunnion indicated with the letter C).

I have no idea why they chose such a particular design (extravagant would say), nor that you may have found of advantages to the system

 

 

 

In this same plane are visible (in front of carriage shaft), the supports of equilibrators (marked with the letter B), and the holes where the axes of the cylinders (b) are inserted and that allow "accommodate" his position when the cradle is lifted.

I do not know any other howitzer that would use this design

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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So far I assumed the 15cm Feldhaubitze M.14 was an original Skoda design, based on what information you considered it copied from Krupp?

BTW The Italian Army considered the Skoda 15cm Feldhaubitze M.14 vastly superior to the 149mm Obice Krupp da 149/12 and, after WW I, the captured Austro-Hungarian guns replaced the Ansaldo/Krupp guns in first line service

Massimo

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Major

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Hi

 

Many of Skoda's cannon models were from designs based on German Krupp designs.

The Argentine Navy had two cruisers with 190mm Odero Terni guns (Italians) derived from the Skoda guns that Regia Marina would have received as compensation after the WWI, and which equipped the ships of the Austro-Hungarian Navy

There is no doubt that they were derived from the naval (or coast) Krupp of the late XIX century (especially their breech block)

 

 

If we did not count the Swedish, Bulgarian or Turkish Krupp M-1906, which had trunnions very centered on the barrel, the Argentine Model had its Further forward trunnions (although it had equilibrators) than those of the  Krupp Mod1913 and the 149mm Obice Krupp da 149/12 (which had them practically next to the breech block) and for their location they made them more similar to those of the Skoda 15cm Feldhaubitze M.14 that you mention.

The Argentine Army had problems with the modification that Krupp sold us to modernize the 75mm Model 1895. With the Skoda AA Model 1928 there were never any problems (as far as I know).

 

I do not know if those experiences help to think that the Skoda were made with more care and that is why the Italians preferred them (both in naval and army weapons).

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Major

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Hi

 

Its Factory Marks and the National Emblem according to the handbook

The engraving of the National Emblem of the buyer country in the jacket of the barrel, was custom of the Krupp factory, and can be seen in all the cannons and howitzers that Argentina bought him, using a simple design since 1898 to 1905, which was changed by other more thorough in 1909 and used until 1911.

 

 

This information is not from "confidential reports" from any "reliable" source, they are from official publications and manuals of uses and service of these howitzers.

The Atlas was a publication of "luxury" of very few copies, and was approved by presidential resolution (see copy of the Boletin_Oficial_Republica_Argentina_1ra_seccion_1913-07-15/1913-07-15.)

 

 Aprobando la Descripción del Obús de-

■Campana de 15 c. ■ m., L/14, Modelo 'Argentino^ 1911 :

: Buenos Aires, Junio 23 de 1913. —

Visto el presente expediente (C 5565) y de acuerdo con lo informado por la Dirección General De Arsenales de Guerra,

 

El Presidente de la Nación Argentina—

Decreta:

 

Art. I - Apruébese la «Descripción del Obús de Campana, de 15cm, L/14; Modelo Argentino 1911 », redactado por el Mayor D. Adolfo Baisi y elevada por la Comisión de Armamentos.

 

Art. 2 - Los 15 ejemplares de dicha descripción y del Atlas que se acompañan, serán 'distribuidos en la siguiente forma :

Biblioteca del  Ministerio de Guerra, 1.

Inspección de Artillería, 1.

Escuela de Tiro, 1.

Dirección General de Arsenales de Guerra, 3.

Batería de Obuses (de experiencias), 5.  

 

Art. 3 - Publíquese y agréguese al legajo personal del Mayor D. Adolfo Báisi, una" copia "del presente Decreto. — 

 

 

The user manual “Descripción del Material de Obuses de Campaña de 15cm L14, Mod911”

Was used by officers and non-commissioned officers with  on  responsibility in the batteries.

 

 

Regards

Eduardo



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Major

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Hi

 

The caisson (a two-wheeled) designed to carry artillery ammunition is of similar design to the ones of other caisson Krupp of that time.

The other transports there are more interesting.

This is the Battery wagon” and transporthowitzer spare parts. You can see two springs of the equilibrators at the top of the wagon, and below, parts of the recoil system, and the breech block

 

In addition they had two boxes of surgery, one of veterinary, tools of carpenter, saddler, mechanic, etc.

 

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Major

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Hi

 

The other transports interesting is theTraveling forge 

Regards

Eduardo



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Colonel

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Nobody " confuses the Krupp 150 mm howitzers mod. with the purchase of the Krupp 75 mm mod. 1905 " because there was no such purchase, the mod. 1905s were simply Kripp mod. 1989 75 mm L.28 fitted with shields,and hydraulic brakes in Argentine Arsenals. Three batteries of  Krupp 150 L.14 mod. 1911 12 guns) is properly and amply documented in Argentne publications..and I may add in U.S. Military Attaché reports..

 

Here's a photo of them, parading through the Avenida deMayo in Buenos Aires c. 1922. They remained in service until the arrival of the French Schneider mod. 1928  materiel in the 1930s,when at least one battery served with the Escuela de Artilería  (Artillery School), otherwise known as the Regimiento, No. 6 de Artilleria (6th Artillery Regiment)...They were similar (but not equal) to the Krupp  15,2cm L.1.6 Model 1909 amd15,2cm L.15 model 1910 manufactured for Russia. They had a maximum range of 6.500 meters(if I remember correctly)  the revant data re these Argentne hows wast lost in a fire which ravaged our club's library years ago.. 

Cheers!

Gunther



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