Landships II

Centurion · Legend

Armoured Cars that didn't quite...

Phil R · Captain

to me, it looks similar to the Italian Autoblinda Terni...

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs/ital_armcar_new_principe.jpg

http://digilander.libero.it/trombealvento/mezzim/fiattripoli.htm

-- Edited by Phil R at 19:42, 2006-04-24

Centurion · Legend

First of your links does nothing! I don't know if this is a problem with the link or the web site.

Looking at the second gives me three pictures:

The first is a version of the one I used for the drawing,
The second is a part of a photograph of two Bianchi Autoblindata 1931. Armoured Cars (George Forty) states "this was a modernised version of Bianchi's World War one car with the old Bianchi hull mounted on a Spa 38r truck chassis and an open top low turret and pneumatic tyres....... they were designed for use in Tripoli". I eclose the full version of the photograph. At least two other sources identify this vehicle as a Bianchi.
The third I have seen elsewhere captioned as "possibly a Fiat"

Of course to complicate matters Bianchi and Fiat had a history of cooperative ventures.

One possible way out of the impasse is the number SM 14160 which I assume is the Italian version of a census number. Can anyone shed further light on this number?

Phil R · Captain

sorry about the duff link; it is to the picture of the model of the fiat autoblinda terni made by il principe nero and mentioned in the 'model news' section of landships (some time ago).

i think that peter has reviewed it as well; yes, here

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/new_pages/pricipenero__fiat-terni_kitreview.htm

they do look very similar - maybe (if they are different) it was one design, Bianchi, made by a few companies? or maybe it was a good design (which allegedly it was) that people copied? like the FT 17.

Centurion · Legend

I think we may be seeing a confusion between the provider of the chassis (Fiat), the fabricator of the armour plate (the state owned Terni steelworks) and the designer (Bianchi). The common practice of assigning the name of the chassis manufacturer to an armoured car is imprecise, not always followed and sometimes confusing (for example some later post WW1 versions of the classic Rolls Royce armoured cars had Chevi chassis and engines and no Rolls Royce component whatsover!). By 1914 Terni appear not to have had an armaments design capacity (this had been hived off in to a subsiduary jointly owned with Vickers) but did make components for a number of companies. Bianchi appear to have used Fiat chassis on more than one armoured car design (presumably those of their own sporting cars were too light), there is for example a 1914 model with a Fiat chassis. I am not sure but think that during WW1 Bianchi may have built Fiat chassis under contract (I'm still digging). There also appear to have been two versions of Bianchi designed armoured cars used in Tripoli. Looking at the two WW1 pictures I suspect that the differences in the bodywork on the two vehicles may reflect this (for example one has side doors and the other presumably has a rear door (like a Rolls Royce). the difference in the shape of the rear sections would tend to support this theory. I think that the version I drew may represent the earlier version and I think I would question Peter's assumption that the turret is an experimental fitting.
I'll dig some more but hopefully someone will come up with an id based on the census number.

Centurion · Legend

One here that I can't quite identify!
When introducing Italian armoured cars Bart H Vanderveen says "The first Italian armoured cars were based on contemporaty commercial chassis, noteably Bianchi, Fiat. Isotta Franchini and Lancia. They were all of similar shape" And how! The enclosed is based on another blurred and dark photo but one which is very similar to other early Italian armoured cars. I have for example found a shot of a Bianchi that looks very similar apart from the bonnet (hood) which for example is much longer but still has the same wire cutter. All I can say that this is typical of some early (1914-1915) Italian armoured cars. The format is very similar to the first Minervas and Renaults. On puzzling item that I have not atempted to reproduce was the folded bicycle strapped to the side. The Italian army had two standard bicycles one produced in 1912 for infantry and one from 1914 for armoured car crews. This one matched neither as blurred as the photo was it clearly had a chain guard which the standard bikes did not have.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/itac2.jpg

Centurion · Legend

In 1914 the Belgians fitted 3 pounder guns to a small number of lorries with partialy armoured cabs and engine compartments. These included De Dion and Peugot. I enclose a drawing of the Peugot. These were much lighter than the British Seabrookes that followed the same sort of format

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/peug.jpg

Centurion · Legend

A French vehicle this time.

Renault designed an armoured car in October 1914 and by early 1915 had delivered a hundred vehicles, some as machine gun armed cars and some with light cannon. However what is often missed from this account is that Renault produced 2 models of early armoured car, the first which began to be delivered in December 1914 and is shownin the link

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/renault1.jpg

and a second better known variety that began to enter service in early 1915 superceding the first on the production line.

Noticable differences betwen the two types include the air intake for the radiator which on the later and better known type were behind the bonnet in a box like frame that breaks the line of the front of the vehicle and the curved front mudguards of the first type. The first type is often ignored in many works ( for example White shows only the second type and his text indicates that this was what was first ordered in 1914). However Les Vehicle Blindes Francais 1900 1944 describes both varieties and has photos of each. Why the design was changed after such a short time remains unkown. It seems that type one was issued to naval units and used to protect unarmoured lorries fitted with cannon

-- Edited by Centurion at 00:22, 2006-05-07

Eric · Colonel

Hi Robert,

Do you have an idea of the colour of those armoured cars ?

Thank you in advance

-- Edited by Eric at 19:14, 2006-05-07

Centurion · Legend

Eric wrote:

Hi Robert, Do you have an idea of the colour of those armoured cars ? Thank you in advance-- Edited by Eric at 19:14, 2006-05-07

Ah instead of "what is the meaning of the universe?" or "how far is infinity" you ask one of the difficult questions!
The colours I've used are broadly based on various coloured illustrations (not photos) plus backward extrapolation from colours of such things as the FT17 and WW2 colours. Sources include such things as Whites book and things like the ciggy cards published in a different thread. HOWEVER I'm increasingly finding errors in White in a number of areas (some of his dates for example are wildly out) so although this was one of the key pioneering books in the area of WW1 vehicles etc I wouldn't treat it as holy writ.The following photo was taken in colour in WW1 and shows a Renault ambulance. Its in a tint of grey!
user posted image

However again armoured frontline vehicles might have been painted in a different colour.
Its worth remembering that we don't have an official definition of French colours for 1939 let alone 1914. Even if we did I would treat it with caution - names can remain the same but the clours refered to may change (for example the 'official' US olive drab of 1917 was a different colour to the olive drab of 1944 (and even then "period [1917] photographs show variations in colour...., obviously dependent upon the mix of the batch." and I fancy the same might apply to the French). Colour chips from old vehicle might help BUT over the years chemical changes can change colours - the classic example was the colour of preserved examples of Austro Hungarian aircraft that indicated the use of various shades of green until advanced chemical analysis of chips proved the origninal colours to have been shades of grey - certain chemical constituents had changed over the decades.
The best I can say is possibly the colours I have used and possibly grey (and given Finaegals General Theory ['the universe tends to the maximum of peversity'] a different set of colours altogether only to be revealed just after youve painted the model).

Eric · Colonel

I know that this is a question with no easy answer, and you did one (answer) which helps me. Maybe, I will start my Retromodels armoured cars (Renault and Peugeot).

Thank you

Centurion · Legend

Re my picture of the Belgian Peugot. This was based on a line drawing and some photos all described as Belgian. However I have now discovered a photo of what appears to be a pair of French camion auto cannon of 1914 that are armoured and armed in a very similar fashion. These are not Peugots (or I think De Dion) and there are also some differences in detail. It is of course possible that the French copied the Belgians (or vice versa) ,or both French and Belgian vehicles were armoured in the same factory. On the other hand they could all be French or all Belgian. Anybody got any ideas?

Centurion · Legend

Eric wrote:

I know that this is a question with no easy answer, and you did one (answer) which helps me. Maybe, I will start my Retromodels armoured cars (Renault and Peugeot). Thank you

Just to add a little more confusion some of the 1915 model Renaults appear to have had a two colour cammoflage

Centurion · Legend

The Vinot-Deguingand of 1918 was a real monster. Vinot-Deguingand were a builder of expensive racing cars (a sometimes entrant and one time winner of the le Mans 24hr race). They went bust in 1925. Their factory was located at Puteaux also the site of the major French arms works. Possibly this may have been the source of the armour plate. The vehicle has a Germanic look (like the Bussing) but is six wheeled. There was a driving position at each end. Whether the middle wheels were driven is unknown (but if the reason for the six wheel configuration was to improve trench crossing they would have to be). I can find absolutely no other info about the vehicle other than the fact that ay least one was built. It doesn't even surface in Engines Blinde Francais. Anybody know anything?
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/vinod.jpg

Tim R · Hero

Centurion

You have been doing an excellent job, How about a Belgian S.A.V.A. Armoured Car., also the Belgian Command Armoured Car sent to Russia.

All the Best

Tim R

Centurion · Legend

Tim R wrote:

Centurion You have been doing an excellent job, How about a Belgian S.A.V.A. Armoured Car., also the Belgian Command Armoured Car sent to Russia. All the Best Tim R

Working on it - slightly hampered by the fact that careful examination of photos show at least two S A V A variants plus the same basic bodywork fitted on a Minerva chassis!

The Mors command car is proving difficult, one photo allegedly showing this vehicle proves to be of a different Mors armoured car, another is in fact a Peugot whilst yet another (published in a 1918 Belgian article) actually is a shot of a Mack armoured car belonging to the New York National Guard! I have so far only a description and one photo showing part of the side at a rather oblique angle

Centurion · Legend

By request the SAVA.

Looking at the photos there appear to be two variants of this vehicle, the main difference being the shape of the armour plate covering the rear section and the way it is (or is not) faired into the driver's section. It can either be angular (there is in effect a step) or there is a rounded joining. My guess is that later SAVAs were armoured in a different factory to the earlier ones (this happened with some Minerva and Mors as the German advance overran the original Belgian plants fitting the armour). Other differences include whether or not rear mud guards are fitted. The SAVAs were asymmetric in that there was a driver's door on one side (port) and a hatch in the rear section (starboard), there was also an extra lamp on the port but not the starboard side. There is a photo of a SAVA in Antwerp that has the angular join and one near Ypres with the rounded. I would therefore assume that the angular version is likely to be the earlier. As B T White has already produced a starboard side drawing of the later version I have done a port view of the earlier.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/sava1.jpg

Just to add complication the same armour appears to have been fitted to one or more Minerva chassis, the bonnet (hood) appears a bit squarer but apart from that they look much the same as the SAVA

Looking hard at rear views of the half shell turret it looks as if there were bolt holes for joining extra segments. One photo of a manned SAVA does look as is if extra segments are in place although it is difficult to be sure. Its possible that the turret was actually designed as a complete but segments were taken off to allow more room and air (it would have been very cramped). This is compatible with some early drawings. Much the same was done with some Admiralty pattern Rolls Royce turrets (the bevels and the top being taken off). I have threfore included a view with a complete turret.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/sava2.jpg

Centurion · Legend

An unknown factor here. I don't know anything at all about this vehicle other than a blurry photo incorrectly captioned as a "pre first world war tank". I think that it is probably an American car circa 1915/16. Anybody got any ideas?
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/unknown1.jpg

Tim R · Hero

Hello Centurion
You are correct, it is American, it is the 1st pattern Jeffery Armored Car 1915.
not the Jeffery Quad No. 1
I have attached a font view.
All the best
Tim R

-- Edited by Tim R at 21:45, 2006-05-16

Tim R · Hero

By the way, can you share that photo?
All the Best
Tim R

eugene · Field Marshal

Centurion,

regarding your discussion about french colors, and british colors for that matter as well,
wouldnt it be possible by color restoration of the original photographs to identify the right color?
This could be done in the green vs brown case regarding the Mk.IV and Mk.V

Centurion · Legend

eugene wrote:

Centurion, regarding your discussion about french colors, and british colors for that matter as well, wouldnt it be possible by color restoration of the original photographs to identify the right color? This could be done in the green vs brown case regarding the Mk.IV and Mk.V

Unfortunately you can't guarrantee the colours from this process are accurate unless you know exactly what type of film (or plate) was used in the first place (there were a number of different chemicals used for differing systems) and what process was used to produce the positive that you are analysing as differing systems and process produced wildly different shades of grey (or sepia) when taking photos of the same original colours. Just to make things worse old photos fade and discolour and also if you are not using an original copy then there could also be further 'noise' in the process.Colour restoration can produce nice 'realistic' photos but I wouldn't bet my shirt on any particular shade being exact.
All of this has caused issues in the world of WW1 aircraft modelling and blood has been spilt (metaphorically) over them.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

Unfortunately you can't guarrantee the colours from this process are accurate unless you know exactly what type of film (or plate) was used in the first place (there were a number of different chemicals used for differing systems) and what process was used to produce the positive that you are analysing as differing systems and process produced wildly different shades of grey (or sepia) when taking photos of the same original colours. Just to make things worse old photos fade and discolour and also if you are not using an original copy then there could also be further 'noise' in the process.Colour restoration can produce nice 'realistic' photos but I wouldn't bet my shirt on any particular shade being exact.All of this has caused issues in the world of WW1 aircraft modelling and blood has been spilt (metaphorically) over them.

I would like to add that the lighting conditions can also produce differences in perceived colours. I posted two photos for comparison in another thread; here they are reduced and side by side for convenience. The He 162 has dark green upper surfaces and the Me 263 has dark grey, which shows clearly in the first image but not in the second. The first was taken with a flash; the second without.

One other problem can be what people want the colour to be. The BBC (I think) had a program showing colourised film sequences from the First World War. One glaring inaccuracy was the part that was done of Richthofen. They had footage of him in front of a colourised red Fokker Dr. 1. Unfortunately, what could be clearly seen in B & W was the streaky olive (or similar colour) paintwork underneath the red colourised fuselage. The team that coloured the footage for the BBC obviously had the idea that Richthofen = red for every aircraft he flew. This wish fulfillment is part of the problem that Centurion mentions.

Finally, comparison with survivng equipment can cause errors. The paint can fade with exposure to sunlight, as well as different colours fading at different rates. Paint quality, especially on the A7V, could vary and could lead to changes in colours. There is also the possibility that the equipment has been repainted.

As I'm sure Centurion would agree, the colours that you choose to paint your model in are usually going to be an educated guess and that the important thing is that it looks right for the scale of the model.

P.S.: If anyone can remember the series I referred to above, could you please post the name of the series. I've completely forgotten what it was called.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 04:27, 2006-05-18

Centurion · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

As I'm sure Centurion would agree, the colours that you choose to paint your model in are usually going to be an educated guess and that the important thing is that it looks right for the scale of the model.

Spot on. The British Model Soldier Society was once riven by arguments about scale colour. When I can dig it out I'll post an item about the error of using the colour of the full size object on a model but in essence it can be summed up by Marks comment above.

Other points to remember are that:

*Paints were usually mixed at the factory or workshop, to an official recepit. However control over proportions was not exact so different batches could vary in shade.
*Official regulations were not always followed. For example there were two official pigments for British aircraft doping, one was greenish and one browner. One was intended for use in temperate condition (Western front etc) and the other for hot sunny climates (eg Messopotamia, Palestine, Mudros etc). However there are plenty of attested examples of aircraft in temperate areas having the tropical finish and vice versa. Many years ago I spoke with an elderly lady who used to work for De havilands in 1917/18 (she's long gone now alas) with the doping (paint) shop. She said that when there was a rush on the, the pigment that was available got used regardless of the destination to which the aircraft would be shipped. One supects that same same expediency might have been applied to armoured vehicles.