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Post Info TOPIC: Mark Vs in Kiev/Kiyv


Legend

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Mark Vs in Kiev/Kiyv
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I know our friends in Ukraine have far more important things to worry about than the Mark Vs, but I stumbled across what appear to be photos of them in Kiev in1941, after the capture of the city. They're new to me.

I've been wondering whether the tanks are still intact, and I was hoping to find the location on a modern map. It doesn't look as if Google are keeping maps of the area up-to-date, which is hardly surprising, but I thought we might be able to see them pre-invasion.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to. I'm hoping someone will be able to help.

It looks as if these are two different locations.

The writing on the back of the first one reads "Leninmuseum in Kiev, 1941." There are scores of museums in Kiev, and most of them look just like museums do. I haven't managed to work out which one this is:

Kiev1941_MkV.jpg

 

Kiev1941_MkV_2.jpg

We can identify the tank as 9436, https://www.flickr.com/photos/7700258@N05/936742745/in/set-72157601074581465/ There's a cathedral of some kind in the background, but that's all I can manage.



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Legend

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Amazing. The memsahib suddenly told me that she had mentored a young woman from Kiev who is studying in UK. She texted her, and asked her if she knew the locations. It turns out that she does. She identified the building in the top picture as the Museum of Ukrainian Art. That means the photo was taken from Mykhaila Hrushevskoho Street. Sadly, Google Maps shows no Mark V on that spot. The young lady says she doesn't recall ever seeing one there.

She knows the district where the second photo was taken, and is going to send me the map reference. More as we get it.

 



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Legend

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Another view:

Kiev1941_MkV_3.jpg

We're still trying to pinpoint the location.



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Legend

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My guess, after a bit of fiddling with Google Maps is that the second tank (9436) was on the bank of the Dnipro River between the present Ukrainian Motherland Monument and the monastery Kiev Pechersk Lavra. The hill in the second image now has a huge statue on top. The monastery cupola and towers is a reasonable match for the cathedral on the skyline in the first image.

Charlie 



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Major

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As the first tank is the chequered painted one in the Takom kit I did search for it before. I managed to find modern pictures and the tank was gone.
Here is an Russian page with more pictures from the tank and the surrounding area tinyurl.com/4nhmtazc
The building is the National Art Museum of Ukraine according to that page.



-- Edited by Orso on Monday 8th of May 2023 08:05:12 PM

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Legend

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Many thanks to Charlie and Orso. I've been doing some digging and am quite pleased.

First of all, there were two Mark Vs in Kiev, but (Spoiler Alert) both are long gone. However, a lot of interesting stuff surrounds them, one in particular. It was much photographed, and is, indeed, the one with the chequered paintwork to which Orso refers. This excellent aerial photo shows its location - by the look of things, before the invasion.

Kiev_nonumber_14.jpg

The road to the left is Hrushevsky Street, and to the right, Museum Lane. The building in the background is the National Art Museum of Ukraine.

There are many photos of this vehicle, including several taken by German troops. A selection enclosed.

Graffiti can be seen on the side of the tank: "Es war einmal!" which is the German equivalent of "Once upon a time," the traditional way of starting a fairytale. Above it is what seems to be a poster showing a cartoon with the arms of a swastika representing the limbs of a human, maybe Hitler. Was this a German implying that the enemy tank is no longer a military threat? Or is there another explanation?

Kiev_swast (2).jpg

The Second Tank.

This one still has its number visible, 9436, which is good, but I've only managed to find 3 photos. Here's the third:

 

Kiev_9436_Podil_2.jpg

It is said to have been on display in a suburb of Kiev called Podil.

According to various sources, 9436 was dismantled before WWII, and the other tank was removed by the Germans before the end of the War, no later than autumn of 1942.

Still working on it. Feel free to add/improve/disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Commander in Chief

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9436 was still there by the end of 1941 (or whenever they had first snow and German soldiers in Kiev).



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Legend

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Ah. I hadn't paid sufficient attention to these 2 vaguely similar photos:

Kiev_double.jpg

Clearly, these are, indeed, different vehicles. Sorry about that

I've done a bit more rummaging, and come up with the following:

9436 was on display in a suburb called Podil, the oldest part of the city. During a redevelopment of the area, a "small city park" was built, near to Kontraktava Square, and that seems to be where the tank was placed. The next clue was that after the tank had gone, in 1977 a statue of the Ukrainian philosopher Grigory Skovoroda was erected in the small park. The statue is still there and is clearly marked on google maps, so we know that's roughly where 9436 was.

Then this cropped up on Wikipedia: a photo taken last year of the statue surrounded by screens to protect it from Russian shelling, and opposite a distinctive building which turns out to be the Kyiv Municipal Academic Opera and Ballet Theatre for Children and Youth.

Monument_to_Hryhorii_Skovoroda,_sheltered_from_Russian_shelling._Kyiv,_July_2022.jpg

Put 'em together and what have you got?

3486Podil.jpg

If you google Mezhyhirska Street, Podil, you'll be able to see the whole thing.

As regards the fate of 9436, Wikipedia says:

In 1938 in the park was placed a British tank Mark V that was taken as a trophy during the Russian Civil War from the Russian White Guards.[2] The tank also remained at the park a few years after the World War II.[2]

The references direct you to here https://7chudes.in.ua/nominaciyi/staryj-podil/ but I can't find that info on the web page. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Comments welcome

 

 

 



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Legend

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I think that's nailed it. Podil is on the West Bank of the Dnipro river. Kontraktova Square seems to be about 200-300m or so from the river.

The church with the cupola and four spires may be St Michael's monastery - it shows up on the Google Maps street view of the Square.

I think you're correct that the Mark V was once located where the statue is now.  

Charlie

 



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Legend

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Here's a guided tour of the area:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLKIAUVqdI   Best from about 5 mins.

The accompanying text says:

"In 1938, a Mark V trophy tank was installed in the center of the square (not exactly where the monument to Skovorodi is now, but closer to the Samson fountain), which survived the occupation and stood there for several years after the war."

The Samson Fountain is about 100 metres south-west of the Skovorodi statue. Here you can see it with the Opera and Ballet Theatre in the distance:

istockphoto-914827412-612x612.jpg

 

And finally, another, not very good, shot of the other Mark V:

Mark V Kyiv 1941-1942.jpg



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"Sometimes things that are not true are included in Wikipedia. While at first glance that may appear like a very great problem for Wikipedia, in reality is it not. In fact, it's a good thing." - Wikipedia.

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