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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Tanks -> Carden-Loyd Mk.I, II, II - Rotating Turret?
Post Info TOPIC: Carden-Loyd Mk.I, II, II - Rotating Turret?
Vilkata


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Carden-Loyd Mk.I, II, II - Rotating Turret?
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I always thought the Carden-Loyd one man midget-tanks, Mk. I, II, and III had a fixed turret. My reference books never mention that the turret-like armored box on top of the vehicle was a revolving turret. Yet we have these images - aparently doctored quite a bit. I make no claim that they haven't been altered from originals, they appear to me to be edited versions of the same image. However, I have never seen the original image in question, so I am uncertain.




At first the images seem to display the same vehicle, but they are in fact the Mk.I, and the Mk.I* wheel and track version, although some level of photo manipulation seems apparent. What I notice though, is that the turret is rotated a bit!!! No documentation I have ever read states that this vehicle either had, or did not have, a revolving turret. Sources always say it had a "turret like" 3 sided gun shield. I believe the "turret like" phrasing is in reference to the fact that it was open at the back.

Now observe two pictures scanned from my Armour In Profile booklet:




Look to the rear of the turret. Does that circular strip of metal, clearly seen in both images, not look like a turret ring? And perhaps the knobby looking thing seen along the front of the turret ring in the first image is a grip for hand-traversing it? In photos the turret is normally fixed straight forward, but perhaps this does not discredit my turret idea. It was a one man vehicle - to keep the turret from rotating around uncontrollably when the driver was relaxing, perhaps there was a way to lock it in place. And, as it was very hard to drive and man the gun at the same time, perhaps the turrret was rarely if ever actually traversed.




Additionally, here is the only picture I have ever seen of a Mk.I manned. You can clearly see the turret-ring, and the position of the man driving it. Machine No.9 is the Mk.I* Wheel & Track, No.8 is a regular Mk.I, and the No.7 vehicle in the distance appears to be a Morris-Martel Two-Man Tankette, note its dual rubber-type steering wheels. Note also the Mk.I* has the armored scoop protecting the radiator at the rear, while the Mk.I has an open vulnerable radiator. The vehicles also mount machine guns.



Can anyone prove or disprove my theory that the Carden-Loyd Mk.I had a revolving turret ?

This really was a very neat (if totally impractical) design. Im quite fond of it.

---Vil.

-- Edited by Vilkata at 00:53, 2006-06-30

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Centurion


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Vilkata wrote:
Can anyone prove or disprove my theory that the Carden-Loyd Mk.I had a revolving turret ?



---Vil.


I can prove you right. Enclosed is original photo from which your doctored photo was taken . It clearly shows 2 vehicles both with their turrets part rotated. You can also see the driver's helmet in the first.

-- Edited by Centurion at 16:10, 2006-06-29

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clrotate.jpg (134.4 kb)
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Vilkata


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Centurion, thank you very much! No publication has ever said this vehicle had a revolving turret. This definitely makes me like the vehicle even more.

What makes a Tankette a Tankette anyways?

As far as I can gather from tankettes that have actually been called tankettes in history books, a Tankette must be under 15 feet long, and weigh under 5 tons. However, this opens up a whole swarm of vehicles classfied as "Light Tanks" that could for all intents and purposes be called Tankettes. So it appears that calling something a "tankette" rather than a "light tank" is completely arbitrary.

For instance, the WWII Japanese tankette Type 97 weighed 3.7 tons, had a length of 12.17 feet, and had a rotating turret.

The modern German AFV, the airportable Wiesal, weighs 3 tons, has a length of 10.85 feet, and a rotating turret. So... I suppose one could call the Wiesal a tankette if they wanted to.

I rather like these turreted midget tanks, like the Carden-Loyd Patrol Tank (a turreted Mk.VI), and the Polish TKW (a turreted TKS tankette, which in turn was a variant of the Carden-Loyd Mk.VI). Really small tanks are just so neat.

---Vil.



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fp2.jpg (123.8 kb)
tkw.jpg (10.0 kb)
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Centurion


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Vilkata wrote:
Centurion, thank you very much! No publication has ever said this vehicle had a revolving turret. ---Vil.



In fact one of my old favourites " The Fighting Tanks" published in 1933 (from whence the photo I sent derives) actually says that this tank (tankette) has a turret that has a 200 degree rotation.

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Vilkata


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Your book collection is far mightier than mine and I am envious :)

We all know that the FT-17 was a very compact small machine, but its really impressive to see the size comparison between some Tankettes and an FT-17. I think this size comparison image is really quite eye catching. In comparison, the FT-17 looks gigantic! I would also like to make note that the Carden-Loyd Mk.VI was designed as a machine-gun carrier, artillery mover, cargo hauler, etc. All of the same traits eventually ascribed to the Universal Carrier of WWII. Yet, there was a WWI vehicle of similar layout, size, and principle - the Ford 3 Ton Tank of 1918.

---Vil.

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Centurion


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If we take one common definition of tankette as being a small tracked armoured vehicle with a one or two man crew, armed with a machine gun or light cannon in a mount not capable of 360 degree traverse, intended as a fighting machine rather than a carrier (as was the Ford 3 ton); then a number of countries produced such machines.
Czech: Skoda S1, T-33
GB: Carden LLoyd Mk 1,1*, II and II. Carden Lloyd 2 man tankette
Italy: CV29, CV 3, CV33, Fiat Ansaldo L35
Poland: TK1, TK3, TKS
USA: Light Tank T3, Light Tank T6, CTL 1,2 and 3 and CTLV (built for Mexico)
USSR: T27

Many of these were widely exported to countries without their own tank industry.

Such vehicles were the soldiers' nightmare and the politicians' dream. They were cheap, much cheaper than a properly armoured and armed tank and enough could be quickly acquired for a government to say to its public - look we are defending you - see how many tanks our army has now. They were fine unless you actually had to fight a war when they almost all proved to be capable of being riddled by even small arms fire and tended to burst into flame when hit (at which point their crews found out how difficult it was to get out of most of them). Their limited transverse light armament made them of limited use either in attack or defence.

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Vilkata


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Centurion, do you (or anybody else?) know if any of the Carden-Loyd one-man tanks are still around? A fair number of them were built, I wouldn't be surprised if an example is still preserved in a museum somewhere, although I have never heard of it.

---Vil.

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I think there is a Carden LLoyd Carrier somewhen but I'm not aware of any tankettes

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Vilkata


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In the tan picture of the demonstrating tankettes, I just noticed one further thing.

In all of the regular pictures the area in front of the triangular radiator housing is open, all the way up to the turret ring. Whereas, in the tan demonstration picture, it seems two strips of metal have been fitted to the side hull of the tankette, and a covering is now in place over the rear of the tank. It's hard to make out, but the No.8 vehicle seems to have this modification aswell.

So, the final design of the One Man Tank seems to have been fitting it with the armored scoop at the back of the radiator, as well as putting an armored cover over the open rear of the tank.

I wonder if there were ever plans to fully enclose the turret ?

---Vil.


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Centurion


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I believe that there is a Carden LLoyd tankette of some kind in the Army Museum in Stockholm

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Vilkata


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The tankette in Sweden is more than likely a Carden Loyd Mk.VI or derivative. Mk.VIs are quite common, to this day. Finland only got a single Mk.VI*, yet that example still exists! I guess that old tankettes handled the scrap drives of WWII better than most tanks, because quite obviously, there isn't that much metal to melt down in a tankette. For that reason, I still think that one of the One Man tankettes must have survived. Or, perhaps, the Carden Loyd two man tank prototypes were assembled by actually cutting up and modifying the One Man vehicles, in which case there clearly would be no survivors.

Centurion, and anyone else, do you have any other photos of the Carden Loyd Mk.I/I*/II/III One Man Tankettes?

Ever since reading books such as Starship Troopers, Armor by John Steakley, etc, I have been fascinated by the idea of mobile infantry. While heavy powered-armor and one-man tanks are somewhat different, the principle behind them is the same.

If anyone has any photos of these vehicles, I would be very greatful to see them. I am not as interested in the Morris-Martel tankettes, the pre-Mk.I Carden Loyd model, or the post Mk.III Carden Loyd models. In my oppinion, the turretted Carden Loyd one man tank was probably as close to a true viable One Man Tank as we will ever see.

---Vil.

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