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Post Info TOPIC: Mystery Japanese Tanks. 20's? 30's?
Vilkata


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Mystery Japanese Tanks. 20's? 30's?
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I originally brought this up at a different forum, but after recieving no replies, I thought I'd bring it here aswell.

I give you two Japanese vehicles:

The "Amphibious Wheel & Track Tank Type 2":
http://s1.simpload.com/072044c04a3cbcc0f.jpg
http://s1.simpload.com/072044c04a5638fad.jpg

And the "Amphibious Armoured Car":
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/japan/amp-AC.jpg

The dates of manufacture of these is not know to me. No information is known to me other than what you see in those pictures. What strikes me is that, both of these vehicles are amphibious, and both of them have that strange little track assembly that seems far too small to be of use to the vehicle. However... I know of yet another vehicle with a similar track assembly, a vehicle I brought up in a different thread.

The Crossley-Martel One-Man Tank:
http://www.czolgiem.com/wbrytania/foto/martel26.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/GreatBritain/GB-CrossleyMartel-OneManTankette.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/GreatBritain/GB-CrossleyMartelTankette.jpg

The tracks themselves aswell as the assemblies are different from the Japanese ones, but they're similar enough that I think they must be related. Drive and idler of similar size, with four small roller bogies suspended by a small suspension system. In all vehicles the assembly seems to be of similar size.

So... I start to think, perhaps both the Crossley-Martel and the Japanese vehicles were based on some common agriculture tractor or some such thing? But then, look at the "Amphibious Armored Car". Both in presumed size and features, it's almost exactly the same as the Crossley-Martel! Diminutive track assemblies up front, with steering wheels in the back! Could Japan have bought the Crossley-Martel prototype and began further work on it? Was the Crossley-Martel based on the same agricultural chassis as the "Amphibious Armoured Car"? There is simply too much the same about all these vehicles for them to not be related in some way.

I would greatly appreciate any information on the Japanese vehicles, they have always been a huge mystery to me. As I said, I have no idea when they were even made - although if the connection with the crossley-Martel is in fact true, then that would put the date somewhere around 1927, when the Crossley-Martel was built.

Thanks in advance!

---Vil.
Edit: In the description of the Type 2 wheel/track tank, they mention that the "Type 1 had a boat shaped hull with domed turret and stroboscopic vision cupola" - it is possible that the "Amphibious Armoured Car" pictured is in fact the Type 1, although it looks more advanced than the Type 2...

-- Edited by Vilkata at 05:21, 2006-07-27

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Craig York


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 I've seen the second vehicle covered in "Japanese Light Tanks, Combat cars, and Tankettes" in the old AFV Profiles series, but don't recall any details at the moment-I'll try to dig it out when I get home this evening.



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Vilkata


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Hello again folks, I've come up with one more picture, and a brief account of this. After a short reply on another forum, and digging up a website that had information, I have compiled all the information, and ended up with this.

------------------



The "Experimental Amphibious Armored Car Sumida AMP" was built in 1931, and tested in 1932, by 'Ishikawajima Motorcar Manufacturing Company', and was the first in a series of experimental vehicles. It was developed as an effort to mechanise the Japanese cavalry, using aphibious armored cars. The Sumida was the first of the amphibious prototypes, and was a curious vehicle combining both track and wheels, and it ran in the opposite direction in the water and on the ground. After this, other amphibious armored cars were experimented with, however none had suitable cross country performance, and eventually it was decided to create a fully tracked non amphibious vehicle, and this became the Type 92 Combat Car.

As to whether the experimental vehicles were really Tanks, or Armored Cars, the Type 92 Combat Car was infact a fully tracked infantry tank, so it is possible the Sumida could be considered a tank aswell.

-------

So, now that you guys have some dates, the name of the thing, etc, can anyone shed any more light on this thing? Or dig up any more pictures?

---Vil.

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Vilkata


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Ok folks, mystery solved.. I was being a fool.

When the listings said that both the Crossley Martel and these odd Japanese vehicles used Citroen-Kegresse tracks, I was getting a different picture in my head.

Both the Crossley-Martel and the Sumida AMP were basically modified Citroen-Kegresse half-track cars!!

Citroen-Kegresse:
http://s1.simpload.com/073044cd1b69ce438.jpg

Sumida AMP:
http://s1.simpload.com/073044cd1b43e1e2c.jpg
http://s1.simpload.com/073044cd1b5961e73.jpg

Like I said, there was a connection between these vehicles and the Crossley-Martel - it's just I should have realised it immediately, it shouldn't have been a great mystery :) Oh well.

---Vil.

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wuestehu


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What about this wheeled and tracked Japanese tank: any idea on what it is?

japan

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Ironsides


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Hi wuestehu, i believe this is a light tank design built by St-charmond in1922capable of running on wheels or tracks, seems like the japanese obtained one I noted this on this resent link supplied by JC Carbonel in the any mole thread...

St Charmond

and here St Charmond2

Cheers





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James H


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Agreed. It's a Chenilette St. Chamond M1921, clearly being evaluated by the Japanese.

Apparently, the Japanese were very much prone to asking for evaluation models and/or plans or inviting western manufacturers to submit tenders and then just copying them. Not cricket. This applied to AFVs, warships, submarines, etc.

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Centurion


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Are you sure that this is a photo of a tank in Japan rather than a photo of a tank with Japanese writing on it? I have a suspicion that this may be one of the Chenilette St. Chamonds evaluated by the Finns. Again I think it may be a later model than the M1921 - possibly an M1922 or 23 (they had a few goes at it. That girder thing sticking out the side appears on no other photo of the vehicle that I've seen.

-- Edited by Centurion at 15:45, 2008-06-29

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James H


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I am led to believe that the pic is of the 21. It had a full-height door that appears to have been removed in the pic, and I suspect that the girder is the back of the crew compartment. Production is said to have been only 2.

I've only got drawings of the 24 and 26 that might not be that accurate. Only one of each was made and the 24 is shown with a dodgy-looking turret and the 26 with a much smaller entry hatch in place of the door. Otherwise, the general arrangement is the same.

Anyone read Japanese?

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