I know this is a bit off topic, but I am perplexed by this question,
Austro-Hungarian empire was quite ambitious in their colonial desires, they played a part in the Boxer Rebellion crushing and they had some claims to Algier, I am wondering if anyone has a more complete picture of the empire's colonial ambitions,
also a bit seperatly, this is some ulternative history, if the central powers won WWI, would Germany have allowed Turkey to keep the lands they captured, because there was a lot of talk in Germany of mesopotamia as being their place in the sun (Germany's) and lastly would Bulgaria have gained much since it was in direct competition with Austria for land in the balkans?
If you're off in the realms of factual fiction try reading ' A sailor of Austria' by a man called Biggins. A bit like O'Brian and C S Forester (Aubury and Hornblower) his fictional hero's exploits are taken from actual events that happened to several different people so the book has a strong generic accuracy. His Austro Hungarian submarine captain borrows a lot from Von Trapp (yes the man in the ghastly Sound of Music) who was a real submarine ace. Among other things it describes the Austro Hungarian policy for the post war and some of the submarine carried diplomatic missions to various corners around the edge of the Ottoman Empire. It would seem that Austro Hungarian colonial ambitions in part consisted of carving huge chunks out of Italian and French African possesions.
BTW it also contains a hillarious account when, as a result of some mis map reading, the submarine surfaces and exchanges fire with Austro Hungarian positions in the Adriatic. The Viennese papers then carried two stories in the same edition one of which said 'Gallant Imperial navy submarine shells Allied positions' and the other 'Valliant Imperial troops drive off attack from Allied submarine'. Apparently this actually happened.
Interesting topic; providing room for a number of views. I've always been of the opinion that Austria-Hungary's energies were primarily introverted. This is most clearly demonstrated by the governing of, and eventual annexation of Bosnia/Herzegovina. AH's primary ambitions were to control/influence actions ,and events within their own imediate geographics. They did "show the flag" on occasions in other parts of the globe, but I suspect that was to reinforce a semblance of world-power status. Certainly we get no clue of genuine ambitions outside their immediate sphere from the papers of Berchtold, and Conrad.
One should always remember the the K u K was a double monarchy - Austria and Hungary often with some tension between the two. I've seen it suggested that Austria would have expanded further into the Balkans if the Central Powers had won and the Hungarians wished for colonies as a balance and the guiding light behind this was Baron Horvath then a senior figure in the Imperial foreign ministry (but after the war Prime Minister of Hungary). Of course not being privy to the archives of the imperial government I don't have any proof whatsover but its an interesting hypothesis and fits what (little) is known.
I think that just because France and Britain had such extensive colonial empires, others wanted to get in on the action, Germany and Italy the later players tried to carve out thier own colonies, I think it would have been interesting to see the Central powers "versailles"
With Wilhelm II being very ambitous in Germany's part, Enver Pasha hoping to restore the Ottoman empire to its glory, and Ferdinand of Bulgaria who was increadibly ambitious as well, one can also wonder that Karl I being very weak personally might not have been able to secure the kind of gains Austria wanted thus maybe causing the demise of the empire regardless of its victory.
The fact is that K & K had more troubles in it self. The only possibility for K & K to expand was trough dynastic expansion. The policy of K & K was as that of the idea of modern European Union – one system that could unite the Europe and the rest of the world. One should bare in mind that the upper classes of K & K had no national sentiment! K & K was based on loyalty to the crown – not on national or religious feelings. Unfortunately the nationalistic propaganda and regional ambitions shattered the unity.
Since the Wars of Religion the Holy Roman Empire broke down and there was no more catholic religion or influence of Pope to keep different countries together. When Protestantism was finally accepted there remained just the monarchy and one Emperor. The unity was challenged by Russian Orthodox Emperor and later with French and German self proclaimed Emperors.
Of the colonial ambitions there was the expander of Empire in 1500’s trough the Spanish conquest of South America – at those times Charles the V was the Emperor…
Since the times of Napoleon I, there was slim chance for Austria Hungary to gain colonial possessions. The ill fated Maximilian in Mexico is a good example how K & K approached the colonial matters – dynastic policy and limited intervention. The volunteers from K & K were present there, but not in a large scale. At the time the regions north of Danube River were the place for settlers as the swampy region was largely uninhabited. When this region was populated – United States, New Zealand, and South America were the places for emigration. It is hard to find a family from the Croatia, Banat or Dalmatia that is not related top someone living somewhere in the New World…
Since the times of Maximilian the influence was mainly in small interventions as a part of multinational force, including some missionary work conducted by priests. The development of the K&K Navy was nothing more than keeping up with other European powers… Besides in Mediterranean there were other powers – Britain, Spain, France, Italy, Turkey…
In WWI K & K forces were present in China, Palestine, Turkey and Persia… All those forces were more like peace keeping force than real armies.
All true but (there always a but) it mainly applies to those whose royalties were mainly Austrian. As you said there was no over arching loyaty to the KuK as a whole and my point about the Hungarian Horvath seeking a way to couterbalance the Austrian supremacy in a post war world might still have some relevance
Incidentally I'd always understood that the ill fated Maximillian Mexican Empire was a French initiative of Napoleon IIIs and the Hapsburgs were just providing a spare younger prince whilst France provided the Foreign Legion. There were many rumours that Maximillian was in fact not of the Hapsburg line at all but the result of an adulterous affair by his mother with the young son of Napoleon. If there was such a doubt that would explain the luke warm (at best) attitude of the court in Vienna to his fate. (If this were true then it has an interesting WW1 follow up for Maximillian also had an illigitimate son, by his Mexican gardeners wife, who was executed by the French Army for espionage in WW1 - if the rumours were true then the French firing squad was shooting the great grandson and last direct descendant of the Emperor Napoleon Boneparte - quelle affaire!)
... more information of a darker stain, eh ? Please, Centurian, can you provide the unfortunate's name who was executed? It is a most interesting story......
28juni14 wrote: ... more information of a darker stain, eh ? Please, Centurian, can you provide the unfortunate's name who was executed? It is a most interesting story......
The account below comes from a number of sources.
The Emperor Maximilian of Mexico had a mistress from Cuernavaca who was known as La India Bonita or The Pretty Indian. Her real name was Concepcion Sedano. The Museum and Garden Etnobotanico in Mexico is now a center for herbal medicines, it was here that Maximilian had his rural retreat, colloquially called La Casa de Olvido, the House of Forgetfulness, because he built a cottage on the grounds for his mistress, but forgot to add quarters for his wife. Concepcion Sedano gave birth to a son in August 1866, and died from grief a year later on hearing of the Emperor's execution. The son was also called Maximilian and is said to have been taken to France under the protection of the Bringas family, the wealthy hacendados in whose house the Emperor always stayed on his visits to Orizaba. During the First World War, a man claiming to be Max Senado the son of Concepcion Sedano was accused in Paris of spying for the Germans. He apparently bore a distinct resemblance to Maximillian. He was tried and sentenced to death, being executed before a firing squad at Vincennes. The Maximilian affair also came back to 'bite' France in another manner. Since the imperial couple never had legitimate children, their enemies charged that Maximilian was impotent and/or the Emperess Carlota barren. As we see above Maximilian had an illegitimate son but Calota was also 'playing away' having an affair with a Belgian officer in Maximilian's army, Colonel Alfred van der Smissens, she was pregnant when she went to Europe to plead her husband's cause. A boy was born and French patriots have reason to wish that Carlota had either miscarried or aborted. Her illegitimate son grew up to be General Maxime Weygand, who surrendered the French armies to Hitler in 1940 and paved the way for the collaborationist Vichy regime.
I'm begining to feel like a sort of 19th century gossip columist ( Vienna Confidential!) but here goes
Sophie Friederike Dorothee Wilhelmine, Princess of Bavaria , married Franz Karl, Archduke of Austria (whom she had previously described as an imbecile) on 4 November 1824 (much against her will) and had four sons and a daughter, Francis Joseph (later Emperor of Austria) August 18 1830, Maximilian (later Emperor of Mexico) July 6 1832, Karl Ludwig, Archduke of Austria, Marie Anna Caroline Pia and Ludwig Victor. After her marriage she struck up a friendship with the the Duke of Reichstadt,son of Napoleon Bonapatre and Marie Louise of Austria. Napoleon II, 1811–32, aka the King of Rome (1811–14), aka the prince of Parma (1814–18), and, finally, to the Austrian court as the Duke of Reichstadt. Napoleon's abdication in 1815 was in favor of his son, so that he was known to the Bonapartists as Napoleon II, although he never ruled. After 1815 he was a virtual prisoner in Austria, where he died of tuberculosis in 1832. In 1940 his remains were transferred, as a gift to France from Adolf Hitler, from Vienna to the dome of the Invalides in Paris, where he now rests beside his father, however his heart remains in urn 42 in the Herzgruft and his viscera are in urn 76 in the Ducal Crypt in Vienna. During the summer of 1831, Sophia's friendship with the Duke of Reichstadt intensified. He was now twenty years old, she was twenty six. They spent long hours together and gave long walks through then palace's gardens. Sophia was the only one in whom the Duke trusted for talking about his father Napoleon and the admiration he felt for him. Although they met amost everyday, it is hard to say how deep was their intimacy. Almost any evidence exists in the correspondence between them, much of which was maybe destroyed by Sophia after the Duke's death; only a few revealing notes survived: "I kiss you with all my heart. She who loves you deeply." By October Sophia was pregnant again. Rumours ran through Vienna that the father of the child she was expecting was the Duke of Reichstadt. By this time the Duke of Reichstadt was dying and Sophie spent a considerable time visiting him on his death bed only removing when the time came for her confinement. On receiving news of the birth of Maximillian a few days before his death the Duke of Reichstadt is reported to have been greatly pleased. During the Revolution of 1848 she persuaded her somewhat feeble-minded husband to give up his rights to the throne in favour of Franz Joseph. After his accession to the throne, Sophie became the power behind the throne.She appears to have been the 19th century equivalent of the Empress Livia in the Court of Augustus Ceasar. Maximillian, although apparently a pleasant enough person and generally liberal and 'modern' in outlook was at times several pfennigs short of a schilling. Ths could be taken as proof of his descent from Franz Karl but it should also be remembered that on his mother's side mad King Ludvig of Barvaria (Wagner's patron) was his uncle. (It has also been suggested that he suffered from syphilis and certainly his wife died from this disease, however her promisuity was certainly at least as great as his and she could have contacted it quite independantly so that this is not really proof of very much.)
If the various suggestions are all true then France has the remains of Napoleon Bonaparte, his son (gift of A Hitler) and his great grandson (shot by them) - if they could recover Maximillian's remains they'd have a full set (bad taste there that man!). Of course no one seems to know if Max Sedano had any heirs. Also an interesting far out speculation - what if Franz Joseph was also Boneparte's grandson?
Reading the treaty of Trianon (as one does when the evenings draw in) I'm struck by the following clauses
"HUNGARIAN INTERESTS OUTSIDE EUROPE.
ARTICLE 79. In territory outside her frontiers as fixed by the present Treaty Hungary renounces, so far as she is concerned, all rights, titles and privileges in or over territory outside Europe which belonged to the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, or to its allies, and all rights, titles and privileges whatever their origin which it held as against the Allied and Associated Powers.
Hungary undertakes immediately to recognise and to conform to the measures which may be taken now or in the future by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, in agreement where necessary with third Powers, in order to carry the above stipulation into effect.
SECTION I. MOROCCO.
ARTICLE 80. Hungary renounces, so far as she is concerned, all rights, titles and privileges conferred on her by the General Act of Algeciras of April 7, 1906, and by the Franco-German Agreements of February 9, I909, and November 4, I911. All treaties, agreements, arrangements and contracts concluded by the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy with the Sherifian Empire are regarded as abrogated as from August 12, 1914."
This implies some Hungarian colonial aspirations had existed.
"ARTICLE 99. Hungary, so far as she is concerned, cedes to China all her rights over the buildings, wharves and pontoons, barracks, forts, arms and munitions of war, vessels of all kinds, wireless telegraphy installations and other public property which belonged to the former Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, and which are situated or may be in the Austro-Hungarian Concession at Tientsin or elsewhere in Chinese territory."
The ambitions refer to North Borneo, which an Austro-Hungarian company had significant influence in, and the owner of that company (if anyones interested I could find his name) patitioned the monarchy to establish it as a Schützgebiet (protectorate in English I think) which would surely have become a colony. All this was in the 1870s but the monarchy showed little interest and the company was eventually sold to British interests. It would have been interesting to see how things would have developed had there been a Habsburg North Borneo. There would have been a third land battle in The Pacific in WW1. I wonder if the Japanese or ANZACS would have taken the territory. maybe even more KuK Marine ships in the pacific in 1914. Interesting alternative history...
The Austro-Hungarian consulate official at hong Kong arranged for the North Borneo attempt, and an undersized expedition was dispatched which immediately encountered difficulties with the natives. An appeal for help to Vienna was ignored, the leads were never followed up, and the british made it clear that the company's claims should be sold to them. Thus, without a leg to stand on, sold to the british it was, and North borneo became a British area. Not only the british and Austrian efforts of course, but the Dutch and the Spanish were interested as well as the Sultan of Sulu.
