Landships II

Centurion · Legend

Where did the Mk Is go?

Mark Hansen · Legend

I can account for 1 female. WD 555 was used as an experimental machine.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

This question has puzzled me, as well. Here are the numbers which I've dug up so far:

1) Everyone seems to agree that 150 Mk.I's were produced, with the first delivery to Elveden on June 18, 1916 and the last completed at the end of October.

2) C Co. took 25 tanks from Elveden to France on Aug. 13. They received 5 new tanks at Havre on Oct. 5.

3) D Co. left Elveden with 25 tanks on Aug. 25. They received 8 spare tanks at Havre on Sept. 5.

4) A Co. arrived at Yvrench on Sept. 14 with what I would presume to be another 25 tanks (the unit history is on order, and hopefully will confirm this number)

5) The E Co. detachment to Egypt took 8 tanks, arriving on Jan. 9, 1917.

6) The training establishment at Wool had 15 operational Mk.I's on Jan. 17, 1917.

7) 555 was an experimental vehicle

By my reckoning, this accounts for 112 of the Mk.I's, 88 going to France and 8 to Egypt. In the absence of any definite information about other Mk.I's being sent overseas, I suspect that many of the tanks which are unaccounted for actually went to Wool as trainers. It was considered desirable that each company in training should be provided with 10 tanks.

Regarding the Mk.I's in France, C. Co. reported 16 tanks available on Oct. 22, 1916, and was not heavily engaged in subsequent operations. D Co. had 16 tanks on strength on Nov. 19. at the end of the Battle of the Ancre. A Co., previously unengaged, seems to have lost only a few vehicles in the Ancre battle, whose conclusion marked the end of tank operations for 1916. Never the less, only 16 Mk.I's were available for the Arras offensive in April 1917 according to David Fletcher, suggesting a large number of break downs occurred during the winter training in France.

Battle losses are more difficult to tabulate. The war diarys generally record vehicle losses, but don't usually record which vehicles were salvaged and returned to service.

Two Mk.I's remained after the war, one going to Lincoln for display, and the other to Hatfield.

-- Edited by Rhomboid at 07:44, 2006-08-15

Centurion · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

suggesting a large number of break downs occurred during the winter training in France.

-- Edited by Rhomboid at 07:44, 2006-08-15

Who was receiving all this training? The expanded tank battalions formed from the original companies did not arrive in France until Spring 1917 having had their basic training at Bovingdon.

Centurion · Legend

As far as I can determine of the 49 Mk Is actually committed to battle on 15th Sept 1916 17 broke down before reaching their jumping off points. Of the remaining 32, 10 were put out of action by the enemy and 7 damaged but remained in running order. However of the remaining 15 a number broke down. Some of the out of action tanks were recovered and repaired. Apparently all the initial breakdowns were repaired.

A very small number of tanks were used for small actions (often just one tank) during the rest of September , for example one tank was used (without loss) in the taking of the the Grid trench on the 25th.

At Thiepval on 26th Sept, 8 tanks were used apparently without loss

At Beaumont Hamel on Nov 16th 1916 2 tanks were used, although ditched they were otherwise undamaged and later recovered.

I can find no record of other tank actions before Arras in April 1917.

If Rhomboid's figures are correct (and there is no reason why they should not be) there must have been a considerable non combat related wastage both before and during training. Are we missing something?

Bodlosh · Sergeant

I have a stupid question :)...
I've read at many sites, that 150 Mark I's were "ordered".. May there be a possibility that they were just ordered but not built?

Centurion · Legend

Bodlosh wrote:

I have a stupid question :)... I've read at many sites, that 150 Mark I's were "ordered".. May there be a possibility that they were just ordered but not built?

Nothing wrong with honest sceptism. However the appendices in Glanvilles's The Devils Chariots derive I uunderstand from the original Ministry of Munitions archives that show quarterly production and how much it cost. This does show 150 built and apparently paid for. There were some dodgy defence contracts in both the UK and France but nothing as blatant as pretending that tanks were built that were not.

Mark Hansen · Legend

It is also possible that at least some of the tanks were converted to spares before they were finished. One big problem with the Mk I was the complete lack of spare parts. The spares were going to be supplied after the production of the Mk I was completed. When they were taken into action early, there were no spare parts available, apart from some engine components.

Centurion · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

It is also possible that at least some of the tanks were converted to spares before they were finished. One big problem with the Mk I was the complete lack of spare parts. The spares were going to be supplied after the production of the Mk I was completed. When they were taken into action early, there were no spare parts available, apart from some engine components.

Possibly AFTER delivery rather than before finished as there appears to be no record of a contract variation which the former would require One would expect however the badly damaged but recovered tanks to be canibalised first. Some Mk Is were obviously in this situation as this must have been where the MK I sponsons fitted to Mk IIs (otherwise one assumes they would have been put into action). I suspect at least some of those MK Is seen in the periphery of various CWS and Tankodrome photos may be canabilised (at least one in the tankadrome photo appears to have no engine). This would suggest quite a bit of wastage between the Somme and Arras.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

In December 1916 the companys in France (A,B,C and D) absorbed drafts and were expanded into battalions, which presumably would have required further driver training. I am uncertain when B Co. arrived in France and how many (if any) Mk.I's accompanied them - hopefully the war diary will shed some light on this. Capt. D.G. Browne relates that E and F Co.'s transferred from Elveden to Bovington with an uspecified number Mk.I's near the end of 1916.

It was decided to send 25 newly arrived Mk.II's to France in Feb. 1917, though I am not sure whether they were intended for training there - in the event, of course, they were used as fighting tanks.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

According to their war diary, B Company, which departed Elveden for France on Oct. 14, 1916, appears not to have taken any tanks with them. I suspect that it must have been apparent at this time that there wouldn't be much scope for tank action for the remainder of the year, and that their Mk.I's remained at Elveden. They were re-constituted as B Battalion on Nov. 18, 1916. There is a gap in their war diary until May 1917, when they were issued with Mk.IV's.

A Company withdrew from the Somme on Nov. 30, 1916. Expanded into A Battalion, tank training did not resume until January 1917, first on individual tanks, then as sections and companys. The war diary comments that they received new training tanks, presumably Mk.II's, in February.