Landships II

Desert_Erik wrote:

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As stated in my earlier posts (and as others have stated). The RR turret is different from the Morris turret, dont you agree? No

The use of the name "Frazer Nash" for the RR turrets can be seen in a lot of litterature (mostly older) when the RR 1940 pattern are mentioned but as you so correctly points out Frazer-Nash is located in England so I agree, the turrets were probably not made by them. You are misinterpreting me

I suspect that since the RR turret were constructed with the Morris turret as a pattern, this is the reason they have accuired the nomenclature "Frazer- Nash" as well. According to David Fletcher they were modified by Nairn Company in Cairo.

More likely that Nairn modified a Frazer Nash

But what are your thoughts on the other points I made in my last post?

I would very much like to have your opinions on them.

I'll cover this in a seperate posting

Yours

Erik

Sweden

 

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Desert_Erik wrote:

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Ive consuled some of my ref. Mostly by David Fletcher (The Great Tank Scandal, Mechanized Force and Tanks in Camera) , George Forty (The First Victory) as well as some "Factsheets" from "Trux Models" (the organisation of the 11th Hussars) .

According to Fletcher the Morris ACVs were not converted but the contract was altered. Out of the contract of 99 original ordered  Morris AC built on the Morris Commersial CS9 chassie 15 were completed as ACVs. Some of them "saw service in the Western desert" (photos of these exist as well as the original prototype wich was  somewhat different). This meens ther were no spare turrets. If you check the photos of the Morris ACV (production model) you will see that it was not just a matter of removing the turret. The hull is different at the back (longer), it has higher walls as well as a roof with several different hatches. What has the hull shape of the Morris got to do with fitting the turret to a Rolls Royce?

If you compare the RR 1940 pattern turret (Frazer-Nash) to the Morris AC turret you can see that there is a difference in proportions. No I can't can you elucidate? Also the configurations of the armament is different, this is not a mirage image since on the RR the smoke bomb discharger is on the left of the  turret and in the middle of the Morris turret. No normally the smoke discharger fitted in the open slot, the Boys in the other large slot and the bren in the middle. There is one shot of a Cs9 in the desert with what looks like a smoke discharger fitted in place of the Bren. The Bren was sometimes remounted at the rear of the turret for AA purposes

Also the bracket on the Morris turret is not for the areal (I cant really say what the bracket is for), this is positioned on the front beside the driver. The RR dident have an areal since it dident carry a radio. The photo of the RR shows a simple pennant. Nevertheless there is a bracket (what ever it is for) in the same place. - bit of a coincidence?

I am not sure the 11th Hussars used the Morris ACVs since these were usually allocated to higher formations (but they may have had one or two at the reg HQ).

Afaik the 11th Hussars did use the Morris Acs in HQ as well as for the troop leaders, the rest were RR Acs.

In my opinion this points towards that the turrets were made especially for the RR , not "leftovers" from The Morris, but certainly patterned on the Morris turrets to get a somewhat uniform turrets/armament.

Nairn Transport's prime theatre of operation was the Bahgdad Damascus run and most of their workshops where in Iraq and Syria. They did have a smaller operation in Egypt supported by a workshop for vehicle repais etc - not fabrication. Its therefore very unlikely that they would have had the faclity to fabricate armoured turrets on the Frazer Nash pattern but they would be capable of fitting turets to a RR and making minor adjustments/mods

 

Yours

Erik

Sweden

 

 

-- Edited by Desert_Erik at 02:56, 2006-08-27

-- Edited by Desert_Erik at 02:57, 2006-08-27

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We have different opinions in this matter and I am not convinced by your statements and I suspect you are not convinced by mine.

Lets agree to disagree and let the other members here draw their own conclusions.

Yours

Erik

Sweden

I don't know if this counts but the following details of a 'RollsRoyce style' or 'Irish copy' provided by an Irish author might be of interest

"Those armoured cars built for the army by Thompson's were marvels of do-it-yourself ingenuity. Patterned generally after the Rolls Royce armoured car, they consisted of plated superstructure mounted on an ordinary Ford or Dodge lorry chassis, which had to be shortened. Because proper armour plate was not obtainable at the time, Thompson's used commercial half-inch mild steel plate. The most interesting part of the car was the rotating turret with its slung seat for the gunner and its heavy Vickers gun, ball-mounted to swivel in all directions, including upwards against air attack and steeply downwards to repel boarders. This ball-mounting was subsequently adopted by the British for their Ferret scout car.

Thompson's turned out 46 of these vehicles, and during the war they had a quiet time of it. In my own recollection I see them filing sedately past the G.P.P. in Dublin at military parades in the post-war years. But some of them saw action during the battle of Elizabethville and in other parts of the Congo in 1961, when they formed part of the equipment of the United Nations force. Never designed with an African war in mind, their cramped cabins became ovens under the tropical sun, despite the installation of an air-blower; and their high silhouette, reminiscent of an elderly lady on an upstairs bicycle, must have presented an excellent target to the snipers of the Katangese gendarmerie. Even when the Katangese did not possess the means to penetrate Thompson's mild steel plate, the smack of a high-velocity bullet on the outside released a lacerating shower of tiny steel splinters within the cab, But despite these drawbacks the cars gave noble service, and when the Irish U.N. contingent left the Congo they were taken over by the U.N. and ended their days in General Mobutu’s army. After the Congo affair a legend spread among gullible non-military types that these products of County Carlow’s Ruhr had no reverse gear, because it had never been contemplated that the Irish army might have to retreat! "

Those cars got everywhere! Enclosed shows RR ACs in German South West Africa (today Namibia). I think the theatre list where RR or RR pattern cars served is probably as follows:

Europe
UK (1914 -1942)
Belgium (1914)
France (1914)
Ireland (various)

Asia

India (1914 - 1940)
China (with the Japanese) (1930s)
Malaya (193? - 1942)
Russia (Baku - Dunsterforce) 1918

Near East

Turkey (Gallipoli) (1915)
Iran (Dunsterforce) 1918

Middle East

Palestine (1916-1918)
Arabia (Now Jordan and Saudi) (1916-1918)
Arabia (Now Yemen) (1916 -1917)
Iraq (1915 - 1942)

North Africa

Egypt (Canal zone)(1915-1918)
Western Desert (Egypt and Tripolitania) 1915 -1918 and 1939-1940)

Sub Saharan Africa

Katanga (Irish UN Contingent in Thomson RR pattern cars) (1961)
Congo (Pres Moubutou's guard in Thomson RR pattern cars) (1961 - 19??)
German South West Africa (now Namibia) (1915 - 191?)
South Africa (1915 -19??)

As far as I know they didn't make it to the Americas or Antipodes (unless you know better!)

I'm sure there are those out there who can refine or augment this list

Great War Truck wrote:

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I expect David Fletchers book will clear this up when it comes out in a few months.
Thanks

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I wondered what you meant: now I know:

The Rolls Royce Armoured Car by David Fletcher, published soon by Osprey Publishing.