Landships II

Les Fowler · Sergeant

WW1 Canadian Armoured Autocar

Phil R · Captain

Les

yes, i have strongly considered making a model of this basic looking vehicle.

i thought that it was just 15 that were taken by the Canadians. A couple of weeks ago i went to the Canadian War Museum and took loads of photos of the AC Autocar they have there. Annoyingly, the car is pushed up against a wall making it difficult to get a really good look at it. (a bad habit the museum has with nearly all of its WW1 stuff, although they are not short of space!)

I have uploaded the photos to my Yahoo photo storage area, but i havent sorted them yet (will do it later today). if you search for 'philthydirtyanimal photos' you should find them (it is not porn, it is an oblique tribute to Motorhead's drummer!).

and a recent thread on the Missing Lynx WW1 forum also has some photos.

hopefully there were some scale plans done in some magazine somewhere! then we would have something to scratch build from, as there are no model kits.

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

I would gladly do an article on the Autocar, using your photos! Just give the go-ahead!

All the best

Centurion · Legend

Service Publications of Canada were preparing a book on the vehicle - cover enclosed. Don't know if its available yet.

Les Fowler · Sergeant

The Service Publications book you mention is not available yet.
It is being writen by Dr. Cameron Pulsifer of the CWM.
Someday I will go to the CWM to see their Autocar.
It is the only one left in existance , and was used by the 1st Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade.
Very very likely my grandfather rode in that car at one time or another, as he was a number 2 man on a Motor's Vickers crew.
If you go to www.canadiansoldiers.com
you will find a photo of him standing in front of one of the cars ( from the site map go to Armoured Vehicles )
Do any of you have the line drawing by Chris Johnson ?? It shows the Car in side veiw with good detail !If not give me your email and I'll send it to you.
Les

Phil R · Captain

peter,

i would love to see an article on this wonderful contraption!!! please feel free to download the photos - i cannot send a CD anymore as i do not trust the postal service here!!

les,

can i have a copy of the line drawings please? my e mail is philthydirtyanimalNOSPAMyahoo.co.uk. and replace the NOSPAM with @ please

-- Edited by Phil R at 21:34, 2006-09-04

Les Fowler · Sergeant

A normal " Ground " Vickers Machine Gun Crew consisted of 6 men.
# 1 was the gunner who also carried the tripod to the setup position.
# 2 was the belt feeder who carried the gun to the setup position.
#3 & 4 were in charge of the ammo boxes , cooling water and spare parts.
#5 was a scout and runner.
#6 was a range taker and spare body .
All men in the Crew were trained in all positions and could strip and reassemble the weapon blindfolded.
The cramped size of the Canadian Motor Machine Gun Autocars only allowed 3 men each for the 2 Vickers plus one driver and one officer who had the opption of useing a Lewis Machine Gun mounted in front.
Each Car could carry 10,000 rounds .

Centurion · Legend

As I understand it the Canadian Autocars were used as defensive machine gun posts in an attempt to stem the German offensive of 1918. Because of the light armour only to waist height their crews suffered an exceptionally high casualty rate.

huhncc · Major

Does anyone have any instances of them being in combat, action reports, etc.?

I plan on scratch building a few in 15mm for some WWI gaming this winter and would like to build a scenario or two around them.

Thanks,

Chris

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Chris , From the book " AMIENS Dawn of Victory " pages 162-3 At the village of Mezieres the French Infantry was halted by the Germans in the village.
Brig.Gen. Brutinel CEF and the CO of the French 94th Infantry had just completed plans to attack the village when word came in that Captain Trench's " C " Battery of the Motor Machine Gunners had sped along a narrow road behind the village under heavy shelling and Machine Gun fire to take the enemy from the rear , allowing the Allied advance to resume at 12:30.
C Battery of the 1st CMMGB was comprised of the surviving members of the Bordens Motor Machine Gun Battery and renforcements from the Canadian Machine Gun Corps Renforcement Pool .

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

The Canadian official history contains some info about this unit,and is available on-line at www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/downloads/Official_Histories/CEF_e.pdf . Check under "Brigades - Automobile Machine Gun, No.1" and "1st Motor M.G." in the index.

Centurion · Legend

I believe that this was an Autocar 'fought to the last man' in the face of the 1918 offensive.

Les Fowler · Sergeant

I will correct myself here , according to an artical writen by Cameron Pulsifer ( not the upcoming one he is writing for Service Publications ) Brutinel purchased a total of 20 Autocars .
8 were made into Machine Gun Carriers
5 were for Ammo and supply carrying
4 were for Officer Transport
1 was a gasoline carrier
1 was a repair vehicle
and the 20th one was an Ambulance which the Autocar Co. donated .
All were made mechanicaly identical so parts could be swapped around.
At wars end only 4 of the 8 gun carriers were still operational and 1 more repaired after.
The one at the CWM is the only one left today

Les Fowler · Sergeant

PS : My avitar is a small photo of my grandfather and his crewmembers standing in front of one of these 5 Cars taken in Bonn Germany .

huhncc · Major

It looks as if the Vickers are mounted on a swivel mount allowing them 360 degree rotation. Is this correct or were they hard mounted (would not make sense).

Thanks for the scenerio stuff, I found I had one already created but did not know they were invloved. Australian night counter attack on Villers-Bretonneux in April 1918.

Thanks,

Chris

-- Edited by huhncc at 19:39, 2006-09-07

Centurion · Legend

huhncc wrote:

It looks as if the Vickers are mounted on a swivel mount allowing them 360 degree rotation. Is this correct or were they hard mounted (would not make sense).

If you look at the various photos posted in this thread you'llsee that the guns can point to just about every point on the compass - so 360 rotation - yes.

Another point - look at one of the photos I posted earlier in this thread - the autocars in this are armed with Colt and not Maxim machine guns. Did any Colt armed autocars go to France?

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Yes the MG s could swivel 360 degrees.
Yes they were removeable and could be set up on the ground.
I recall reading in the War Diaries of instances where road condisions halted advancment so they set up fireing positions on the ground.
The original machine guns purchased were 20 Colt Model 1895 which German workers at the Colt Plant tried to stop from being shipped ,so they were smuggled out at night.
They were replaced on Aug.9th-1916 with British Vickers.

Centurion · Legend

See enclosed shot of autocar with Colts and the sides down so that you can see the mounts.

Centurion · Legend

One more photo. This one and the one Rhomboid posted are of the survivors of the big German offensive of 1918. Note how young one of the machine gunners looks.

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

Now I've just posted an article on the site on the Autocar.

Thanks to all those who chipped in! You have been given credits for this!

Amazing the amount of knowledge that can be gathered together by people frequenting this forum.

Phil R · Captain

just read the article, peter, y es muy bueno, bravo!

and wouldnt it be great if MAFVA or Minitracks turned up a set of scale plans to scratch build from!

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Is there anyway to prod one of these companies into doing a kit ????
I for one ,would like to have several models !!!

Centurion · Legend

About 25 years ago someone did a braille scale white metal job (they also did a whippet and others) but you'd only want want more than one of their models if you were an avid coarse fisherman and short of sinkers. Given adequate drawings I'd think that a 1/35 or 1/32 scratch build using p[lasticard ought to be possible if one could canabilise the wheels from some other kit.

Phil R · Captain

les,

prodding the big companies (that work in plastic) seems nearly impossible. one might have better luck with the smaller companies that work in resin, such as Modelkrak. however, how one contacts them is anybody's guess.

Tim R · Hero

Hello Gents

I have attached a few disturbing, but all so true photos of the Canadian AC.

All the Best

Tim R

Centurion · Legend

Yes, as I posted earlier they took really heavy casualties in the German 1918 offensive. A number acting as rear guard fought to the last man. Their crews were very vunerable given the lack of armour above the waist level. They were machine gun carriers not real armoured vehicles and should have been replaced long before 1918 but some civil servamt or politician probably decided that this was too expensive! Nothing changes.

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Amazing photos Tim , where did you get them. I have never seen these before !!!!!!

Tim R · Hero

Hello Gents

Here are two drawings of the Autocar, this may inspire some one to scratchbuild one.

All the Best

Tim R

Centurion · Legend

To round out this thread I enclose a picyure of Autocar survivors in a Canadian victory parade in Belgium shortly after the Armitistice

Les Fowler · Sergeant

That photo was taken in Mons and can also be seen in motion as it was filmed during the parade .
Go to the Canadian Archives motion picture section.

Les Fowler · Sergeant

I have found out the details of the damaged Canadian Autocar and the dead soldiers.
The car was commanded by Major William Battersby 1st CMMGB.
Mar.25th 1918 at the village of Licourt an artillery shell exploded close to the car forcing it off the road killing or wounding the crew.
The Car was looted by German troops before these photos were taken by German Army Photographers.
Only one body of the 5 lost was recovered, a Pte.John Cuthbert Begin is buried in Pargny cemetery on the Somme.
Lost besides Battersby was Pte.Donald Douglas Brooks, Pte.Robert Walker Connell , and Sgt. Cyril Vidal whos names are commemerated on the Vimy Memorial at Vimy Ridge .

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Here are two photos of my grandfather ( 3rd from left,standing ) in front of Autocar in Bonn , spring of 1919 during occupation duty.

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Service Publications has now printed the booklet on the Canadian Armoured Autocar written by Dr. Cameron Pulsifer of the Canadian War Museum.
Les

http://www.servicepub.com/

James H · Legend

A bit late in the day:

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Canadian_Machine_Gun_Corps

Great War Truck · Brigadier

On the subject of Autocars, i thought that you might be interetested in seeing this picture of our Autocar at Buckingham Palace earlier this year (we were told to bring our own drip tray!). Ours was made in 1917 and was one of about 600 purchased by the British Army. It came back from France in about 1990 and we have restored it as a GS lorry although it was quite probably a water tank truck.

Hi Les!

Tim (too)

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Les Fowler wrote:

That photo was taken in Mons and can also be seen in motion as it was filmed during the parade .
Go to the Canadian Archives motion picture section.

Les

I cant find this. Could you send me a link please.

Thanks

Tim

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Tim

the film is called 'Canadians at Mons'

http://www.nfb.ca/enclasse/ww1/index.html

if the link doesnt work, its in the 'Postwar Period' 'After the Armistice'.

There's a different film of the Autocar posted on my youtube page.

Incidentally, Ironsides should like this Canadians at Mons film, as it shows a correctly hitched team pulling artillery.

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Your quick on the draw Bill ....
Tim , the film clip "Canadians at Mons" is the 4th one from the left in the "After the Armistice" section. The Armoured Car in at the end of the clip , enjoy !
Les

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Oh ya� , Bill if you ever do remember where you found the clip� you used in� your youtube� video� please tell me biggrin

Les

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Got it. Wonderful clip. Many thanks. I never knew that such film existed and it is wonderful to see.

Tim (too)