Landships II

Vilkata · Brigadier

The Morris-Martel Tankettes

Centurion · Legend

According to 'Making Tracks' there was an original prototype, built and demo'd by Martel (with a wooden superstructure) and four factory made machines built by Morris one of which was the first two man Martel. These were followd by eight further two man machines. In 1927 there was a seperate Crossley Martel one man tankette. However I suspect that this is incorrect and the four factory built machines consisted of 2 one man and 2 two man. In this case your last photo would show all the original Morris machines. I have a different photo pf the other side of a short Morris Martel 2 man but it is impossible to say if this is the same machine as in your photo but taken from the other side or a 2nd machine.

Centurion · Legend

I enclose a murky photo that appears to show two Morris Martel with two CL one man.

The numbering in the various photos would suggest that this was a type or class designation during trials of all the tankette types. It does look as if there was a tendency to have pairs

Vilkata · Brigadier

Here is the Crossley-Martel One-Man. This was the Crossley company getting in on the idea and trying a few new ideas. It was a Citroen-Kegresse set up using rubber tracks, with the engine in the rear of the vehicle, built in 1927. Only one vehicle was built, and it has a distinctive shape to it, so it doesn't really have anything to do with the Morris-Martels the thread is about - just in case anyone was getting confused.
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/GreatBritain/GB-CrossleyMartelTankette.jpg
http://www.czolgiem.com/wbrytania/foto/martel26.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/GreatBritain/GB-CrossleyMartel-OneManTankette.jpg

---Vil.

Centurion · Legend

Although I gather Martel was involved in both Morris and Crossley productions, the latter was used to test various track arrangements not just Kegresse. Interestingly the number plate allocated to the Crossely was only 3 digits different from the Morris Martel shown below which would indicate that the army tended to group them in much the same class.

BTW one contempory account gives the number of Morris Martels produced as 16!

Centurion · Legend

Subsequent to my last posting,its possible to reinforce the concept of at least 2 short two man tankettes as there are differences in detail between the two shown in the photos I posted - I've redlined these.

-- Edited by Centurion at 21:28, 2006-10-03

Vilkata · Brigadier

So I reckon that, combining written knowledge with photograph research, we can theorise that there were:

1 Home-Built One-Man Prototype.

Production Vehicles Batch 1:
2 One-Man vehicles.
2 Two-Man vehicles.

Production Vehicles Batch 2:
8 "Two-Man Improved" versions with lengthened chasis.

Could be wrong, but from all available knowledge it seems like the best bet.

I think the reason a book might seem to say there were 16 "Two-Man Improved" models made, is because those vehicles were built to be part of the "Experimental Mechanised Force", which existed for 2 years. The Experimental Mechanised Force was comprised of 16 tankettes. However, 8 of thse were Carden Loyd Mk. IVs. If one assumes that the Mechanised Force was made up entirely of Martels, then 16 would be an easy number to misinterperet.

It's also interesting to think that the 8 Two-Man Improved Martels of the Mechanised Force fared better in reliability than the Carden-Loyds. However, Morris Motors was too busy building cars, and Martel was too busy at the War Office to develop the vehicles any further. Carden-Loyd were able to pick up where they left off and evolve the Two-Man tankette to its height.

"The Martels proved their tactical value, but continual trouble was experienced with their light construction and particularly with the rear wheel steering mechanism which was often damaged in rough going. The centre of gravity was too high and the cross-country performance was indifferent." - Well, that description is made early in my book, and later on it goes to say that the Martels were more reliable than the Carden-Loyds. So, if the Martels were prone to those problems, the Carden-Loyds must have been prone to even more! Interesting.

I will attach an image presumably of the first Martel Two-Man vehicle, with an experimental steering set up. The second image will be a bad image of the Crossley Martel - Is the man standing next to it Martel ?

---Vil.

Centurion · Legend

Possibly too old for Martel. After all he served as a tank commander in WW1 and 1927 was less than 10 years later.

Centurion · Legend

Vilkata wrote:

Ok, very muddled information... I just got the "British AFVs: 1919/1940" book, and I have been cross-checking information on the Martel tankettes through a few books. My conclusion is that a fair part of the information about these tankettes in general must be wrong. I am even hesitant where to begin... First off, I'll list the tankettes built, as detailed in the book. --------- In 1925 Major Martel built a one-man tank at his home. This was un-armored, and used off the shelf components, except for the tracks which were custom made. Martel demonstrated this vehicle to the War Office on the heathland outside his garden gate Camberley in August. In 1926 four vehicles were ordered by the War Office, and were built by Morris Motors. One of these vehicles was completed as a two-man vehicle. Around 1927, 8 two-man vehicles were ordered. These differed from the previous by being longer - with the vehicles length increased to 12 feet, and the tracks increased to 7 feet. All in all, we have: 1 original prototype. 3 one-man production models. 1 two-man model based on the one-man chassis. 8 lengthened two-man models. --------- This was the prototype: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/GreatBritain/GB-Martel-Prototype1925.jpg This was the production One-Man vehicle. Note how the first picture says it is the hand made prototype... Second pic is of that same white "prototype". The rest are standard One-Man vehicles. http://s1.simpload.com/10024521cb19e638f.jpg http://www.czolgiem.com/wbrytania/foto/martel25.jpg http://s1.simpload.com/10024521cbe0d80c5.jpg http://s1.simpload.com/10024521cc11ea39e.jpg This is presumably the one-man chassis completed as a Two-Man vehicle. The chassis has not been lengthened. (Note: All Martel 2 man vehicles have that sloped left side for the driver.) http://s1.simpload.com/10024521cd453f2c2.jpg This is presumably the lengthened Two-Man vehicle of which 8 were made. http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/GreatBritain/GB-MorrisMartelTankette.jpg Ok, jolly good... But then examine this picture. http://s1.simpload.com/10024521ce707c715.jpg Note that the forward two vehicles have the sloped left side - they are Two-Man vehicles. Note that the rear two Martels do not - they are One-Man vehicles. (The vehicle at far rear of the column is the Carden-Loyd Two-Man Original.) Clearly the Two-Man vehicles have not been lengthened - and yet there are two of them! From everything I have read, there should only be one non-lengthened two-man vehicle. What I'm getting at, is that it seems there can be no conclusion as to how many vehicles of each specific type there was. The vehicle noted to be Martels first hand built prototype clearly is not, and there were clearly more than one non-lengthened two-man vehicles. Can anyone help me muddle through all this ? ---Vil.

I think your designations may be awry. The first two machines that you show as production are, I suspect, a 2nd prototype. I enclose a better picture of this machine. Note the absence of ventilation louvres in the inward sloping bottom half of the wedge shaped front. Also note the rivet pattern along the side of this front (all rivets equally spaced) I think that the last head on view of a one man is also of this 2nd prototype as it too lacks the louvres Looking at other photos of one and 2 man machines these have the louvres and the rivet spacing is different.

The picture that is said to be one of the 8 production 2 man types puzzles me. Are you sure that this is correct and this is not another experimental version? The rear wheels on the original one and two man Martels were steerable and held down on the ground by strong springs (performing much the same task as the tail on the old Mk I heavy tank). This may have been to simplify driving. The rear wheels on the stretched limo version in your photo are clearly not steerable and would hamper steering having to be dragged round turns, given the positioning of the weight at the front they would not add any extra trench crossing capability.

I also enclose a photo showing the Morris and Crossley Martels together.

Centurion · Legend

Further to my last posting I enclose another view of the possible '2nd prototype'. I also enclose a photo of the Martel artillery tractor developed from Martel's original prototype.

Vilkata · Brigadier

Thank you VERY much for those photos Centurion! I have never seen any of them - That is by far the best image of the white prototype vehicle, and of the Crossley-Martel One-Man I have ever seen. In addition, that photo proves the Crossley vehicle WAS a one-man vehicle. Some websites seem to think it was a two man vehicle.

As for my numbers... I have no idea. Those were just my best guesses. Quite frankly, I have absolutely no idea about any of it. The "Stretched Limo" pic I got off of the TANKS! website, and it fit the description of the 8 lengthened two-man vehicles mentioned in the "British Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1919-1940" book.

Now that you bring this up... I can not be sure that any of the information I typed is accurate at all.

---Vil.

Vilkata · Brigadier

Aha! I just thought of one solution to one of the many questions raised.

The "White One Man", as I shall call it, was indeed the prototype /Morris-Martel/. It was not the prototype Martel. Normally books only ever refer to these vehicles as "Morris Martels". In my books case... There was a description of Martels hand-built one-man prototype, and the author thought the White One Man, which was the prototype produced by the Morris automotive firm, was the FIRST Martel vehicle - it wasn't obviously.

Now i'm understanding.

I believe we can also be entirely sure there were 2 One Man vehicles, and 2 Two Man vehicles, in that first production batch. The first production one-man, the "White One Man" did not have ventilation louvres, as you so keenly pointed out. Neither did the Two-Man vehicle with the experimental 1-Wheel steering mechanism, of which I attached a picture in a previous post. And then, in the picture of the 4 Martels followed by the Carden-Loyd 2-Man, you can immediately see that one 1-Man, and one 2-Man have ventilation louvres - Note that a vehicle with the louvres has an exhaust pipe that bends down, and then back. The vehicles with no louvres have exhaust pipes that go straight back from the engine.

And the "Stretched Limo" Martel, of which I am led to believe was the type that comprised the 8 vehicles for the Mechanised Force, have Ventilation Louvres. It seems apparent that the first production 1-Man, and the first production 2-Man did not have louvres - while the second 1-man, the second 2-man, and the 8 Mechanised Force vehicles all had louvres.

Still very muddled, but we are at least gaining some headway.

---Vil.

Centurion · Legend

Looking at the various photos it appears that there were two short two man M Martels with louvres in the lower front of the tank so if the one wheel 2 man doesn't have this (as you state) there must have been at least three short two man Martels so either there were more Morris Martels than 12 or some of those built for the experimental force were short versions.
One key identifying feature of the louvered martels we all seem to have missed is the square ducting on either side of the top of the engine housing with a square vent at right angles just infront of the crew compartment.

Inter-War · Private

Hello Centruion and Vilkata,

Nice to find some fellow enthusiasts for the wave of British inter-war tankettes - It's a nice niche to be in!

Would be good if you could both resotre some the links in your previous posts, or pehaps we could start a new thread on the works of Messers Martel, Carden and Loyd?

Regards,

PC