Landships II

Centurion · Legend

Mk V* puzzle

Mark Hansen · Legend

I'm not so sure that the gun and all its bits have been removed. This looks very much like another photo (attached) which appears to show a Mk V without it's gun heading towards the front. It is possible the gun has been run back into the tank.

Centurion · Legend

One difference is that the Mk Vs have their sponson doors attached, the Santerre Mk V* does not. The soldier next to the sponson appears to be pulling out a flexible tube or stiff cable, on the blow up in my 1st posting you can just make out a soldier inside the tank who appears to be paying it out to him.

Centurion · Legend

A number of points from further perusal of the original photo in this thread

1. Mark - thanks for pointing out the photo of the tanks moving up with guns retracted - I had a copy already but hadn't noticed this point. Further perusal of my files finds another shot of Mk Vs moving up with guns retracted (enclosed). However I can find no photos of Mk IVs in a similar situation. Now this means one of the the following a) I just don't have the right photo or b) this approach was only used by Mk V and V*s. If the latter is the case was there any change in the fittings on Mk Vs and V*s that made it easier to retract the gun and shield? Anybody know?

2. The Mk IV ahead of the Mk V* appears to be a supply tank (the sponson appears to have no door and fewer rivets).

3. The door on the Mk V* sponson definitely seems to be missing. I had thought that it might just have been opened at such an angle that it was almost edge on to the camera and there is something at the bottom of the sponson that might be the angled 'doorstep' but there is too much empty space betwen the open doorway and the ege of the sponson for this to be the case.

4. As well as the soldier (officer?) at the rear of the MK V*sponson someone is on the roof of the tank also feeding a cable of some form or other. It looks as if they are feeding a cable that runs into the rear turret and then out again through the open sponson door. But what could this be for?

5. A further point of interest is the group of soldiers walking past the tanks. They appear to be a bareheaded British soldier (unarmed) and three Germans (walking wounded escorting POWs to the rear?). No one seems to have any concern that the POWs might attempt to escape (least of all the POWs 'for us the war is over' - and who can blame them). Its interesting to note that although the leading German appears to have his gas mask container none of the three are wearing helmets having, instead , undress soft caps. Rear echelon troops or front line taken by surprise? It may also be of interest to note that down the road someone is pushing forward with a bicycle. Possibly one of the bicycle couriers I mention in the (unpublished) article on bicyles and motobikes I posted a few weeks ago who has pushed his bicyle round the blockage caused by the limber and dead horse. Just imagine cycling into the Battle of Amiens!

Ther's a lot going on in that photo!

Oh blast its hijacked the photos from the previous posting and dropped the one I added! I'm correcting

-- Edited by Centurion at 21:35, 2006-10-15

-- Edited by Centurion at 21:37, 2006-10-15

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

The Canadian Official History captions the photo as tanks supporting the 3rd Cdn. Div. on Aug. 8, at Hourges (in the valley of the Luce). The fog was said to have persisted in this locality until well after sunrise. The soldier standing beside the tank appears to be retrieving a white tape. Since Hourges was immediately behind the Canadian start position, possibly this was one of the white tapes lain to guide the tanks approach. The soldier standing in the tank's cab is wearing a tie, identifying him as an officer. He seems to be holding a cane, although I would have thought this to have been an uncommon accoutrement by this stage of he war.

Given the position of the sponson door hinges, it's possible the door is attached and is being viewed edge on.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

2. The Mk IV ahead of the Mk V* appears to be a supply tank (the sponson appears to have no door and fewer rivets).

3. The door on the Mk V* sponson definitely seems to be missing. I had thought that it might just have been opened at such an angle that it was almost edge on to the camera and there is something at the bottom of the sponson that might be the angled 'doorstep' but there is too much empty space betwen the open doorway and the ege of the sponson for this to be the case.

2. The Mk IV is definitely a supply tank and there is a door with its vision slit just visible. Another identifying feature is the absence of MG mount on the sponson side.

3. I have to agree with Rhomboid. The door is there and just barely visible. You can see how it just breaks the outline of the sponson. The "cat flap" for the empty shell cases is also clearly visible. It almost looks as if the photographer wanted to make the door disappear.

The "cat flap" is a quick way of distinguishing between a Mk IV supply and a Mk IV male if the photo has been taken from the rear. Exception: There always has to be an exception. The Mk V on display at the IWM has, on it's sole male sponson, a door without the "cat flap". Presumably it was replaced with a non-standard door for good reason (such as people getting their fingers stuck in the flap of a standard door).

Centurion · Legend

Mark, Rhomboid

It therefore seems that the "Santerre 14 -18, Sentinelle de la M�moire" web site got it right. I enclose a translation of their text

�The date of this photo poses a problem: the note in the Public records of Canada indicates a date of August 9th, 1918 and that of the Imperial War Museum the 10th. The 9th seems improbable because there was no fog on this day contrary to the 10th. The 10th is not very convincing because this road was very heavily used from the very start of the offensive and given this then the existence of the corpse of a horse and limber blocking the middle, would make this date unlikely. The most plausible assumption would be sometime during the morning of the 8th.�

Another revision needed for an IWM photo caption?

I'm afraid that I find the white tape and officers stick explanations unconvincing. By August 1918 officers were not carrying sticks into battle - this was a sure way to be spotted as an officer and quickly picked off. In a tank you could get away with it but why carry a stick in a tank? Looking at a blow up of the photo (attached) the position of the officer's hands. I've tried holding a stick like this, he'd only be using this grip if he were using it to poke at something on the hull - which seems most odd. It also seems too long. I still think its a cable of some form and he is feeding it - look at the red line on the photo - the cable appears from behind his hands. If the man on the ground (who I suspect is also an officer) is picking up white tape it must be very stiff! An approach tape would be unecessary on a regular road. In any case there are two other issues with this, firstly it seems odd to be so tidy on the battlefield as to collect the tape and secondly these tanks must be part of the third wave (hence the supply tank in the lead) one wouldn't expect much of the tapes to be lift in place by then.

In my earlier posting I stated that I had considered the open door edge on possibility Looking again at the photo something is either wrong with the image or the door (if its there). Look at the red line oblong in the 2nd blowup - there is a hard line at the bottom which could be a door edge but at the top its very crooked and rough. BTW the red circled rivet head would make it impossible for a closed door to fit flush - is this a normal fitting?

Re the Mk V missing cat flap. Cat flaps must have been easily removeable or otherwise the whole door would have to be removed to allow the sponsons to be pushed in for transport. Possibly it just got lost on the IWM tank.

-- Edited by Centurion at 19:09, 2006-10-16

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

In my earlier posting I stated that I had considered the open door edge on possibility Looking again at the photo something is either wrong with the image or the door (if its there). Look at the red line oblong in the 2nd blowup - there is a hard line at the bottom which could be a door edge but at the top its very crooked and rough. BTW the red circled rivet head would make it impossible for a closed door to fit flush - is this a normal fitting?

Re the Mk V missing cat flap. Cat flaps must have been easily removeable or otherwise the whole door would have to be removed to allow the sponsons to be pushed in for transport. Possibly it just got lost on the IWM tank.

-- Edited by Centurion at 19:09, 2006-10-16

I've outlined on your detail shot the door and pointed out the handle.

I haven't seen a door without the flap except on supply tanks but the door itself would have been easily removed. It only rests on two pins so by lifting the door up it would come free of the pins. Removing or re-attaching the door would take no time at all for two men.

The hinges were rather long so it would allow the door to close past the rivet. That rivet does appear on other photos.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Your points are well-taken, Centurion. Certainly, policing the battlefield of used tapes would seem to be an odd thing to be doing, particularly at this stage of the battle. I would disagree about the necessity for assembly tapes on a road; the assembly was carried out in complete darkness on a moonless night. I think a tape could have the appearance seen in the photo if it was under tension. In any case, it doesn't really look like a hose or cable either, so I'm at a loss for an alternate explanation. The soldier holding it (whatever it is) appears to my eye to be wearing an other ranks tunic and webbing.

After scanning a larger reproduction of the photo, it's clear that the officer standing in the cab is not holding a cane. His right hand seems to be gripping a disc-shaped object.

I've attached another well-known photo of a Mk.IV supply tank, also taken on the Amiens-Roye road during the battle.

Centurion · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

. I think a tape could have the appearance seen in the photo if it was under tension.

Except that you can see one end unsupported. A very stiff cable (such as an earthing cable) would behave like this. Given its position with a 3rd wave supply tank one wonders if this tank carried a wireless and the crew were setting up a signals position. (At least one US Mk V* is documented as a wireless carrier so Mk V*s could be so equiped. This might explain the cable in the hads of the man in the hatch - seting up the arial? The US Mk V* wireless carrier did not have a pole arial and could transmit soon after coming into position.