Landships II

Tim R · Hero

Strange Sci-Fi Italian Tank

Vilkata · Brigadier

It almost looks organic, or like some sort of mobile Hindu battle temple!

---Vil.

Tim R · Hero

Hello Vilkata

I see your point, very strange indeed!!!!!

ATB

Tim R

MCP · Captain

The text under the picture says:

A NEW WAR MONSTER : The terrific, tremendous, irresistible British armored cars that are devastating German trenchs.

I think it is a imaginary of the first British tanks attack in the Somme (this issue of the Domenica Illustrata was published exactly one month after it). The painter probably knew something about the attack, but he did know how these tanks were.

I think that this "tank" may look like the first Italian heavy tank "Fiat 200", that was built at the end of the War.

Tim R · Hero

Thank you MCP for that translation, That shed some light on this subject.

Thanks

ATB

Tim R

dave1001 · Corporal

a strange thought, could this possibly be influenced by the design of the first Italian tank? The landships article on the Fiat 2000 states:

"While the Italians were quick to start experimenting with Armoured Cars, the first Italian Tank project proper was not begun until 1916, and was mainly the work of a certain captain Luigi Cassali: his idea was to build an armoured machine capable of moving cross-country, sporting two machine-gun-equipped turrets. Such a vehicle was actually built, by the company of pavesi, who had experience in cross-country vehicles. This project - the FIAT 1000? - was abandoned after test had proved the limits of that particular design vehicle."

Note, that this odd picture claims to depict the first british tanks, but the shape is completely wrong. While the incorrectly guessing the shape when tanks were first reported wasn't limited to the italians, could the picture have been influenced by some knowledge of the first Italian experiments? (which reportedly had two turrets) I have no information to support this idea, but I thought I might point it out. Does anyone have any further info on Cassali's first machine?

MCP · Captain

Here two Italian project for a tank.

Roger Todd · Legend

MCP, those are fascinating, thank you! Do you have any more information, such as dates etc.? I can make out that Ansaldo were involved in some way, but any other info would be very welcome.

Centurion · Legend

The second vehicle seems to share McFie's iddea of having seperate tracks in the front for climbing rather than one set of tracks with the front turned up which was Wilson and Tritton's key contribution to tank design. Would this date the design a pre Sept 1916?

Roger Todd · Legend

Perhaps... Even Wilson suggested using a separate frontal track for climbing in March/April 1916 (somewhat before Macfie - see the Flotilla Leader in the Flying Elephant entry on Landships). On the other hand, a much later Soviet superheavy tank design (the T-39 of 1933) also featured separate frontal climbing tracks, so it seems to be an idea that crops up from time to time.

EDIT: Oh for ****'s sake, the original attachments have now migrated to this post!

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 22:11, 2006-10-27

Tim R · Hero

Thanks a million MCP, those are really interesting, do you have any futher information on these drawings????

All the best

Tim R

MCP · Captain

Till now I don't. The book where I found them is in two volumes. I have the second volume with the pictures, but not the first one, with the text. I must go to the library.

Vilkata · Brigadier

I tried translating it via Babblefish, and it didn't help at all...

"The mobile blockhouse heavy type [ Ansaldo magrini mangiapan ]
s.d., s.l., (diegno a1 10738)"

"A first plan of [ armored testuggine ] Ansaldo turrinelli,
s.d., s.l. (ASA album Turrinelli)"

Apparently the word "Testuggine" would not translate. I looked it up on google, but all the pages were in Italian save for one page about translations where people were trying to figure out what it meant... Apparently the word has something to do with Armor/Shields etc.

But this is great news! We finally have pictures of what may, or may not, be the Fiat 1000! There could always have been two Fiat 1000 designs. If this is the Fiat 1000, and these are two different designs for it, I would say Picture 1 would be the actual built model. Notice the considerations of the road wheels, suspension, engine, etc. The draftsman focuses very little on the armor and weaponry, instead he focuses on the motive components. In picture 2, the draftsman has drawn a big mean vehicle with 4 different track assemblies per side with two big mean turrets armed with big mean guns - but has not drawn details of how any of it could be built.

---Vil.

MCP · Captain

Sorry, I forgot the translation.

The mobile blockhouse heavy model "Ansaldo Magrini Mangiapane" [I think it is the names of inventor], no date, no place [this means that we don't know when and where the project was made] (drawing A1 10738) [this is the archive number of the drawing]

A first plan of a "armoured tortoise" [the tortoise is a sort of "armoured" armoured, from this the name of the armoured vehicle - but the "testudo" was the name of a Roman Imperial Army formation where the legionaries protect themselves putting their shields upon their heads] Ansaldo Turrinelli, no date, no place (ASA Album Turrinelli).

BTW I know at least two more plans of Italian "tank" and as soon as possible I'll post them. But I don't know anything about a "Fiat 1000"

Best

Roger Todd · Legend

This is excellent MCP! Yet more new material being unearthed! What are the books you mentioned earlier? And please, anything else, post away!

MCP · Captain

I was in the library this afternoon and I have some answers.

In the mid of 1920s in a publicity-booklet edited by Motomeccanica Brevetti ing. Pavesi (an Italian firm) and titled Tracteurs et camions there was a picture showing a two-turrets tank with double wire cutters in front. According with D.CROW & R.ICKS, Encyclopedia of Tanks, London, Barrie & Jenkins 1975 it was designed "Pavesi-Tolatti" [but the correct name is Tolotti] or "Pavesi-Cassali". One of the best Italian expert of Italian tanks, Nicola Pignato, in Italian A.F.V. cited what sais Icks adding only that "capt. Cassali was supposedly the designer" and that "the Italian vehicle was badly underpowered, and it was soon broken up for scrap."

He says also that "During the war, another project took place... This was a vehicle created in 1917, in Novara, by capt. Luigi Gussalli. The vehicle used un unusual method of propulsion, with skids moving forward (alternating) in a similar manner to a person feet. Tests results were very successful, but this very interesting vehicle was not accepted by the military authorities".

The informations about the tak of capt. Gussalli come from C. MONTU', Storia dell'artiglieria italiana, Roma, Rivista d'Artiglieria e genio, VII, pp. 1623-4.

The informations about the Pavesi-Tolotti tank appear in other essay of Nicola Pignato, while he recntly does not mention the Gussalli tank. Till now I was not able to find more about these two cars. Surely the names Cassali and Gussalli are very similair.

I don't know who the devil are all these guys, Cassali, Gussalli, Tolotti...

A picture of the Pavesi-Tolotti is attached here.

The source is always the book L.CEVA - A. CURAMI, La meccanizzazione... etc. 1st and 2nd volume.

-- Edited by MCP at 19:02, 2006-10-28

MCP · Captain

Now a few informations about the tanks of my second post .

In January 1917 Italian engineer Gino Turrinelli made two plans of a "testuggine corazzata". The first one was in my previous post, the second one is attached here: He presented his plans to Pio Perrone, owner of the Italian firm Ansaldo. In the same time major Magrini had developed his plan of a "fortino mobile" and this plan too was presented to Mr. Perrone. On January 26, 1917 the "Direzione Generale del Genio" (the Engineer Command of Italian Army) wrote to Mr. Perrone that he wanted the plans of the major Magrini tank in order to compare them with the plans that eng. Turritelli had previously sent to the Engineer Command.

But at the beginning of January the first Schneider tank come in Italy and Pio Perrone proposed to Giovanni Agnelli, the owner of the Italian firm FIAT, to built the French tank together. At that time FIAT was manufacturing the two Fiat 2000. So the plans of eng. Turritelli and major Magrini were abandoned.

Both the Turritelli and the Magrini tanks had the system used the half-tracked tractor Soller used by Italian Army and derived from the american tracked agricultural tractors Holt. One of the motives of the abandoning the two plans was the Perrone's fear of "invasion" of american firms.

Vilkata · Brigadier

Thank you for sharing! The photograph of the Pavesi-Tolotti is incredible!

---Vil.

Tim R · Hero

Fabulous,Fabulous,Fabulous,Fabulous, thanks a million MCP, I have only one poor photo of the Pavesi-Tolotti tank, I really appreciate that one, as well as the others, simply awesome. By the way do you have any photo's of the Soller tractor??

All the Best

Tim R

Pody · Lieutenant

Hi Tim!

I am a little puzzled on the fact that I never can find/open an picture you
are starting a thread with. The same here.
There is no "Tolotti" photo left to open, only a "Ansaldo" is visible.
Do I have a "wrong" PC?,

Thanks,

Pody

Tim R · Hero

Pody, Sorry you are having problems with the photo's, all photo's are on this thread, they have just been moved around mysteriously. My original photos have been placed on Rogers post, labeled ITWW1D.jpeg and LA DOMENICA ILLUSTRATA 1916 #10.jpeg, also on my computer, both Tolotti and Ansaldo show up, if you are still having problems, I will be glad to email them to you.

All the best

Tim R

Centurion · Legend

Tim

Attachements are becoming a real pain both moving around and increasingly difficult to open. For some arcane reason attachments arbitarily get assigned one of two mini thumbnails. One you click on and it opens fine, the other gives you a menu with a choice of view or store (save). If you click on view sometimes it opens (eventualy) sometimes it doesn't and it can take many clicks befor you get it to open in the Ms Windows viewer. Part of the problem is sometimes the viewer recognises the picture as a jpg and sometimes it doesn't which suggest there is a transmission problem at the server end so that on one attempt its no good and a subsequent try its ok. Thuis seems to be happening more and more.

Centurion · Legend

I've had a go at interpreting one of these amazing new Italian drawings.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/it1.jpg

The track units are pure guess work as the Italians did not have much in the way of home grown tracked vehicles (eg tractors) to go on. The machine as a whole has some more modern features (the turrets would not look out of place on a WW2 machine) but there are some aspects that have me imagining Col Compton, Lt McFie and the Italian designer sitting down over a grappa to compare notes (except that Mc Fie - who I visualise as Blackadder's cousin McAdder with a Sam Browne - probably would have refused to take part).

If built I suspect it would have been under tracked (not enough ground contact) but it looks a better bet than an A7V and certainly than a Schnieder

Tim R · Hero

Looks Good Centurion, how about doing the others as well.

ATB

TIM R

Centurion · Legend

Here is an interpretation of the other twin turret tank. In producing this I was struck by a number of similarities. The Best 75 (with the curved body) come to mind but also the twin turret version of the Simms and even Cowan's machine. I wonder how practical the curved body would have been given the production difficulties with curved thin armoured plate.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1114252/it11.jpg

Its interesting to see how all three of these Italian projects used pairs of short track units - I wonder if this reflects the existance of some Italian tractor units that could be utilised.

Vilkata · Brigadier

I am convinced that the majority of "curved armor" vehicles simply utilised thick boiler plate / mild steel instead of proper thin armor plate. This could be a reason why the completed vehicle was so under-powered. Obviously, it takes far thicker boiler plate to match the bullet resistance of true armor plate. I believe the Vezdekhod, and the hypothetical Shchitonoska, utilised such makeshift armor. I was reading somewhere about how most of Russias armored cars did not use true armor, they used mild steel / boiler plate.

---Vil.