Landships II

Centurion · Legend

Char 2c survivor

Centurion · Legend

I enclose a link to a French web site that has all the photos of the Char2 you might ever want. I note that it confirms some of the basic info in the Spanish Web site commenting that it's not impossible that 'Champagne' still exists today!

Apologies to any one who's already found this site.

http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/fcm_2c.htm

Vilkata · Brigadier

Russia stole heaps and heaps of treasured items during WWII. Only recently has Russia even admitted to posessing priceless artwork that they stole (which was probably stolen by the Germans first in a lot of cases).

I hypothesize that Chamapgne exists somewhere in the Kubinka museum, where tourists have no access. If word ever got out that it still existed, France would want it back. The 2Cs were the flagships of the French military. Everyone knew they were obsolete, but seeing them drive around through towns had a grand effect on morale.

I have no doubt that France would get very upset if the 2C was not returned to them.

So, the Russians simply deny being in posession of it.

It seems like a plausible scenario.

---Vil.

theburk · Captain

i doubt france would want it back, kubinka has quite a few national heritage tanks from around the world, including the maus, the prototype next generation german tanks (including the tiger 2) amoung others. its probably in a shed somewhere in moscow having been forgotten for a bit. thats the way a lot of tanks there are, esspecialy since the fall of the soviet union. everynow and then someone will find a tank in a bog in russia somewhere and voulenteers will get it out, and kubinka will ship it to moscow and it will sit for a littlewhile before being slowly refurnished for display, im more appauled that the brits scrapped the captured a7v's! and that it was only through subordination that mephesto survived! now, if germany cant have mephesto back, it wouldnt be surprising if the char2 never made it to french soil, besides on a goodwill loan from russia. also, the reason they were destroyed, was because the french didnt want them falling into german hands. now, i havent heard that the russians denied having it, nevermind that much of kubinka is closed off to tourists as it is a military training and engineering center as well as a museum, the same thing happens here, why not more then a month ago i was at an airshow at alliance airport, where bell had displayed the XV-3 vtol, and, i looked to the hanger just behind it and you could see the rotors from the V-22 osprey mockup, i walked over to try to get a look, but a police officer standing in the cracked hanger door told me he would have to shoot me if i stepped beyond the white line. its understandable security.

-- Edited by theburk at 01:06, 2006-11-02

Taranov · Private

Vilkata wrote:

Russia stole heaps and heaps of treasured items during WWII. Only recently has Russia even admitted to posessing priceless artwork that they stole (which was probably stolen by the Germans first in a lot of cases). I hypothesize that Chamapgne exists somewhere in the Kubinka museum, where tourists have no access. If word ever got out that it still existed, France would want it back. The 2Cs were the flagships of the French military. Everyone knew they were obsolete, but seeing them drive around through towns had a grand effect on morale. I have no doubt that France would get very upset if the 2C was not returned to them. So, the Russians simply deny being in posession of it. It seems like a plausible scenario. ---Vil.

1). War trophy and stolen items - it's two differences.

2). FCM 2C in Kubinka... Yeah, realy, he is in secret hangar with UFO and Grosstraktor In reality, i haven't any info about FCM 2C tests in Kubinka.

3). If you want to return tanks from kubinka, return all foreign Aberdeen exhibits first :P Lots of rare Kubinka tanks still in good condition, in Aberdeen lots of tanks looks kile a scrapyard exhibits :)

Centurion · Legend

Taranov wrote:

Vilkata wrote:

1). War trophy and stolen items - it's two differences.

But given that France and the USSR were supposed to be allies would it be a war trophy?

2). FCM 2C in Kubinka... Yeah, realy, he is in secret hangar with UFO and Grosstraktor In reality, i haven't any info about FCM 2C tests in Kubinka.

3). If you want to return tanks from kubinka, return all foreign Aberdeen exhibits first :P Lots of rare Kubinka tanks still in good condition, in Aberdeen lots of tanks looks kile a scrapyard exhibits :)

Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that the tank was last seen in East Germany post WW2 so why Kubinka

Taranov · Private

Centurion wrote:

But given that France and the USSR were supposed to be allies would it be a war trophy?

Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that the tank was last seen in East Germany post WW2 so why Kubinka

1). ALL french tanks in Kubinka - Beutepanzers. Ex-french tanks, used by Germans. Or ex-rumanian tanks

Beutepanzers:

Panzerspahwagen TOE 203(f) - Panhard 178

Panzerkampfwagen 39H 735(f) - Hotchkiss H.39

Panzerkampfwagen 35S 739(f) - Somua S-35

Romanian tanks

Renault R-35

UE2 Malaxa - romanian built Renault UE tractor, different wings

Also in Kubinka preserved Renault FT-17.

2). "was last seen in East Germany post WW2" - and what? Do you have any info about FCM 2C in Kubinka? Me not and another russian researchers not. Captured tanks in Kubinka used for test, it's not treasure. It's proving ground, like Bovington or Aberdeen. And i haven't any info about FCM 2C tests in Kubinka.

-- Edited by Taranov at 19:02, 2006-11-02

Centurion · Legend

2). "was last seen in East Germany post WW2" - and what? Do you have any info about FCM 2C in Kubinka? Me not and another russian researchers not. Captured tanks in Kubinka used for test, it's not treasure. It's proving ground, like Bovington or Aberdeen. And i haven't any info about FCM 2C tests in Kubinka.

-- Edited by Taranov at 19:02, 2006-11-02

Sigh! Thats the point I was trying to make - obviously not very successfuly. I never suggested that the tank was at Kubinka! I was asking how or why it was being suggested that it was there given that its last sighting was in East Germany - again East Germany not the USSR or Russia. Read my first E mail in the thread.

Taranov · Private

http://cook.c58.ru/webrunner/fcm.jpg

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

What is taken as War Booty is not stolen. The Russians har earned - tenfold, and dearly - all the vehicles that now can be found in Kubinka.

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

And the Aussies have earned the "Mephisto", etc.

Centurion · Legend

Carefull! You'll create a whole swarm of people who will swear blind that that is definite proof of the Soviet use of this tank and no other explanation is possible

And I suppose thats the Princess Anastasia in heavy disguise standing in front of it

Phil R · Captain

perhaps the origin of the Kubinka part of the rumour:

"On 15 June the rail was blocked by a burning fuel train, so it became inevitable to destroy the tanks by detonating charges. Later Goebbels and Goering claimed the tanks were hit by German dive bombers. This propaganda lie was to be repeated by many sources. One tank, the Champagne was nevertheless captured more or less intact and brought to Berlin to be exhibited as a war trophy. In 1948 this tank disappeared, causing many to speculate it still survives at the Russian Tank museum in Kubinka."

from Wikipedia