Landships II

MK1 Nut · Hero

MK1 Tank Plans

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Helen,

thanks for your quick reply! This makes things clear, or almost clear..that iron bar is not going through or am I wrong? On pictures, kits etc. it always makes the impression of one bar going from edge through the hinges of the shields. The lift mechanism, is that meant for hoisting the tank on a railway car or something? And if this bar has another function, what could that be?
By the way, I am not a native English speaker, I hope my English is good enough.
Another question: the measures of the barrel of the six pounder of the Mark I. I presume they all had the long version? As far as I can see on pictures, these barrels were slightly tapered to the muzzle end?
Thanks again for photo's and sketch!

With regards, Kieffer

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi�Kieffer

The bar runs all the way through and is attached to the main viewing port hatch. I have coloured all the connected parts in blue to make it easier for you.

The 'mechanism' is the lever at the end of the bar that runs into the cab at the edge, and is used by the crew to lift the main viewing port hatch up for a clearer view when they're away from danger.

The spring that is visible�either holds down or helps lift the small viewing port hatch.

Helen

-- Edited by MK1 Nut on Saturday 5th of December 2009 09:31:35 PM

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Helen,

I'm adding detail to MkIV drawings I drew some time ago, and am working on the conning tower front. On the MarkIV and Little Willie the Hinge Block that is bolted to the front plate has a flat surface that goes up against the front plate. I would be suprised if it is as you have drawn it for the MarkI as there would be no benefit to change the design like that. The front edge of the Little Willie block was flat and not radiused as per the later tanks The block appears to be a flame cut extended 'D' with a 3/4" hole in the centre of the radius and a tapped hole in the centre of the flat face.

I'm impressed with your drawings, there is a great deal of work there.

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hiya�

I think you're right, it would make for a good strong joint. Even my pictures from Bovi don't show it clear enough for me to know.

Is this about right .....

Helen

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Helen,

thank you! I was a bit confused by the word "lift mechanism", but now I think I have the picture.
What at first sight seemed to be a rather primitive construction, looks a bit more sophisticated after all.

Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi everyone

again, this forum is just fantastic. Can only agree with Lincoln Tankers words: Helen's drawings are a great deal of work. I only have questions, I don't hope I am irritating you people with asking them.
Still, about the front shields...what is that small protruding bar on the little vision flaps, looks like if there is a bolt at the end?
The track spanners: had all the Mark I's the rounded aperture? Is the spanning device one piece, meaning the rectangular bolted part and the 'cup' behind it in one?

Kieffer

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Kieffer

Keep the questions coming as they make people look and find new things.

I'm not sure myself how the small viewing flap works, as I say it seems to be spring loaded and the bolt like protuberance appears to be there to stop it opening to far ... I think!� confuse

Is your second question to do with the front track adjuster, if so I have a part of my plan that may help.

Helen

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Helen, thanks again! Wished I had your drawings a year ago...
I wonder how standardised these tanks were. Some photo's you see a thicker rim around the aperture, others look flatter. But may be it is an optical confusion? The same with bolts and rivets.
Are there any original plans preserved, or archives? What I know is, that they could already do a lot in these days, but also a lot of work was done on eye sight. How did they cut hundreds of slits, apertures etc. on the exact spot?
Than I have a question about the "suspension" of the rollers. There are these typical L girders, with the U formed
rods bolted on. The axle ends are visible. They seem to have a kind of covers, like a lid of a jar, with a bolt in the centre. On photo's it is hard to see how the real thing looks like.
Do you know the book "Tank" by Patrick Wright, publisher Viking, ISBN 0-670-03070-8? It has a very interesting part in which the development, ideas, showing to the public and so on is described. Not so much the usual technical stuff but more about the expectations of the wonder weapon.

Regards, Kieffer

jim-jo · Corporal

Hi Helen.

I have arranged my visit to the tank museum on 14th of December and have an appointment with the archives department to discuss the details you require as well as mine for the Little Willie tank, so I hope it will be useful for your project.

I asked about the male sponson on the sponson trailer and i was told it is from a MK 2 and not a MK 1, does this make a difference ?

Regards Jim

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Jim

As far as I know they used the same sponsons on MK1 too Mk3s so it will be fine for little old me!

Can I ask you for one last favour to get me 4 measurements off of the MK2.

I didn't get to Bovington at all this year so next year it will be a must, if I can return the favour and get you any measurements �I will be happy to do so!

Helen

jim-jo · Corporal

Hi Helen.

Ok, so the sponsons are all the same so will not be a problem getting all the measurements you need including the new ones from the MK 2 tank as well.� I'm looking forward to the visit there it should be a good day out.

Regards Jim

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Jim

Have fun at Bovi �... i am sooooo jealous ... wish I could be there!

Helen xx

MK1 Nut · Hero

Than I have a question about the "suspension" of the rollers. There are these typical L girders, with the U formed
rods bolted on. The axle ends are visible. They seem to have a kind of covers, like a lid of a jar, with a bolt in the centre. On photo's it is hard to see how the real thing looks like.
Do you know the book "Tank" by Patrick Wright, publisher Viking, ISBN 0-670-03070-8? It has a very interesting part in which the development, ideas, showing to the public and so on is described. Not so much the usual technical stuff but more about the expectations of the wonder weapon.

Regards, Kieffer

Hi Kieffer

Ummm �... errr ... my best answer is I'm not sure.� confuse

I have looked at my pictures I took at Bovi a few years back and this is my best theory.......

What we are looking at is the end of the axle which runs all the way through. The Roller runs on the axle and is lubricated in the field by unscrewing the square headed bolt that is only to be found on the outside end of the axle. The grease is pumped in and the square headed bolt is put back.

I've done a quick sketch to try and show how I think it goes.

If anyone has the answer let us know!

Helen

-- Edited by MK1 Nut on Thursday 10th of December 2009 09:02:42 PM

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi everyone

Just a little update on the plans. I have finished the front and rear view and show it here minus track so as not to hide any detail.

Helen

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Helen, thank you!!!
I scaled your drawing of the sponson up to the scale of the model I am working on, and made two bodies of MDF board. They will be covered with metal sheet. I think you are quite accurate: everything fits to the corpus of the tank, right upon the big embrasures on the sides, like the real thing!
I will post photo's, but I am not that handy with computers, that's my dear wife's business so when she has some spare time...
Kieffer

Poniatowski · Major

Helen,

I think you're right about the axle. Most likely slid into place, with the U bolt keeping it from sliding out of position. Simple, but effective. also, I agree about the lube method.

Ron

jim-jo · Corporal

Hi peeps.

Here is a print out I found that shows a cross-section of the wheel axel system that might give a better idea as to how it all fits together.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi everyone,

you would expect a rim on both axle ends where the U iron would have more grip, but probably it worked without.
The system looks a bit like that of the ww 2 Churchill tank, or am I too far.
Were the links the same as those on the Whippet? And the shoes, were they cast?
I understood that on top of the hull, the track just slid on a kind of sledge rails. Must have been a noisy business.

Kieffer

jim-jo · Corporal

Hi there.

The shaft is actually held in a fixed rigid position by the U-bolts and the rollers are able to rotate freely around the fixed shaft with wear and tear taken up by the bushes that are fitted between the shaft and the rollers, and wear is reduced by the application of grease through the grease plug and chamber as explained by Helen.

You are correct that for the most part the track system when running over the top of the tank is guided and held against lateral movement by L-shaped runners, however there are a couple of roller wheel assembles on the top area too.

This configuration of track layout however does not contain any sort of suspension with the only moveable part being the track tensioner situated at the front of the track system ... a point of interest for me is whether or not a baffler system would have been fitted inside the fuel tank to reduce the sloshing around of the fuel as the tank ran over rough terrain ?

Jim

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

Jim, can you confirm that on the drawing the angle fits in a slot in the axle. Thanks for sharing the drawing.

I've attached a copy of an original track drawing.

-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Friday 11th of December 2009 02:29:58 PM

-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Friday 11th of December 2009 02:31:44 PM

jim-jo · Corporal

Hi Chris.

From the diagram it can be assumed as a cross-section projection that there is a groove cut into the shaft that would house the L-shaped bracket, and this is reinforced by the naming of the component as "Roller Locking Angle".�

However this is one of the details I need to confirm for the Little Willie as well as the range of rhombiod tanks when I visit the museum on monday so will inform you if this is the case.

Jim

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi All

Thanks for the drawing of the track Jim, very useful.

I must admit I never noticed the groove in the axle for the 'L' section before it was mentioned ... now I have looked at my pictures I can see it must, but never gave it a second thought when doing my plan.

One thing I did notice while looking at my photos is that the MK2 at Bovi only has a greasing bolt at one end of the axle ... it might be worth a look to see if they've been blanked off or if the track drawing is wrong.

Helen

Just added a view of the Front & Rear plan with the track in place.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi everyone,

so the L girder fits in a groove, not the U iron as I presumed. Now everything makes sense!
Years ago I saw in the Army Museum in Budapest, off all places, a section of track of a Mark? tank on display...lots of Very Official Museum Guards, ladies in a kind of cleaning aprons, not too friendly...
Did they carry some spare track with them, or any spare parts at all? They had a tool box, had they not?

Jim's intriguing question about the fuel tank and the baffler system: I presume that the fuel tank is made like the old fashioned tin can or water bucket, box or drum like, soldered or pressed together, so it's possible they shove in a kind of compartment. Even a gauge, made of copper or brass might be. At the other hand, they had to run only a few miles considering the tactical concept. Started with a full tank, sloshing would have been a later problem?
How did they fill up the fuel tank anyway?

jim-jo · Corporal

Hi Helen.

I thought the drawings of the track system would be useful, only noticed it in my files the other day and can't remember for the life of me where I got it from ... lol.� However on the original I have which gives a clearer picture it only shows one grease hole and plug as a hatched line drawing on the roller, but will also check this on the the tanks on monday and get some photos of this section of the track system on as many of the rhomboids as I can.

Jim

Ironsides · Legend

Hi a few observations, the drawing is from�1981 so its not an original I have this same drawing in my files, from what I can see only one greasing point would be necesary as this goes into a void bettwen two bushes,� probarbly which are�Phospher bronze... to a large extent these are self lubricating if properly prepared by soaking in oil or liguid grease before hand...

Cheers smile

Gwyn Evans · Legend

The draughtsman is Dick Harley, who I have corresponded with on various subjects and still do from time to time. Dick knows these tanks inside out and is also a very fine draughtsman. I have no doubt his drawing is reliable.

Gwyn

kieffer · Commander in Chief

It's a fine drawing this mr. Harley made, are there any other drawings by him reproduced?

Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi everyone,

on the second section of the rhomboid hull (counted from the front) and the second last section, there are small bolted pieces underneath the axle shafts. The stiffening girder is interrupted there. They count six rivets as far as I can see. What's their function?

regards, Kieffer

MK1 Nut · Hero

Gwyn Evans wrote:

The draughtsman is Dick Harley, who I have corresponded with on various subjects and still do from time to time. Dick knows these tanks inside out and is also a very fine draughtsman. I have no doubt his drawing is reliable.

Gwyn

Hi Gwyn

I hope no offence was taken by my comment that the track plans maybe be wrong. I only meant in the sense of the MK1, as I realise the plan represents an amalgamation of all the variations from Little Willie onwards in one drawing.

I am now desperately trying to get a good picture of the MK1's axles to see if there is any oiling points at both ends of the axles, or if it is just on the�MK2 at�Bovi.

As I have said before, it's the discovery of little details like these that I enjoy the most.

I can only repeat Kieffers question and ask did he do any more plans, as the quality of his plans speak for themselves.

Helen

-- Edited by MK1 Nut on Saturday 12th of December 2009 03:57:52 PM

Poniatowski · Major

Keifer, are you�referring to the removeable plates for sliding the tracks into place on the retaining "L" brackets? These are at the front and rear lower runs of the tracks.�
�I'd imagine some sort of pry bar was applied to help seat the track 'guides' on the sides of the castings�into these brackets that kept it from sagging away from the suspension when crossing a trench.�� The space provided in the plate allowed the tool to be inserted when tracks were worked on.� Of course, this is my theory as a former mordern tanker, so it's only based on experience with modern tank tracks.

As far as I know, Little Willie would be the same, as this was a problem with the Holt tracks that was cured by the Lincoln designs.

I hope this helps.

Helen, EXCELLENT job and great discussion started because of your drawings!

Ron

-- Edited by Poniatowski on Saturday 12th of December 2009 10:57:17 PM

Poniatowski · Major

MK1 Nut wrote:

One other thing you could find out about for me if you can, I noticed some holes in the exhaust plates which I have coloured in red on my drawing. Two of the plates seem to have holes near the corners, but the plate near the main hatch I think are nearer the centre or possibly off centre.
I'm also unsure if the exhaust pipes protrude up through the plates a little.

Again thank you for this!

Helen xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx�

-- Edited by MK1 Nut on Friday 4th of December 2009 10:03:15 PM

Hi Helen,

I love the roof drawing you did and have to rework my model a bit to correct some errors, but that's okay!� My question is, where in the world you found the information showing the 'manhole' hatch to be hinged so it opens away from the exhaust?� That's something I never found out and will put into my model.

Also, I do think the exhaust pipes protruded above the plates a bit (I'm thinking around 2 inches here).� Again, I think you're setting the standard for accurate MkI drawings here.

Cheers!

Ron

�

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Ron

Ooops sorry about adding to your building work!

All this started from a visit with friends some years ago now. I just fell in love with the First World War Tanks and the interest has never fully gone away.

I expect as many off us have done I purchased the Airfix MK1 plastic kit, and although it was nice to have, it was also evident how wrong it was.

Then some years later my friends started buying RC Tamiya Tanks, and the idea came into my head to build a working model of a MK1 tank. confuse

The problem then of course was the tank I knew and loved didn't quite match the plans and models available ... so with the help of a graphics program for my computer over the last 5 years or more, on and off, I have been teaching myself TurboCad and working on these plans.

Anyhow back to the roof ... I soon realised this was one of the areas information was lacking, so I contacted the records office at Bovington.
From there I purchased black and white photos of them dismantling the MK1 before its move to Bovi.
Although I purchased those photos the image remains the property of Bovington, and I believe it would be wrong off me to show them here.

All I can say is the roof was as you can imagine, in a mess! Although strangely enough the round hatch was not only still there, but had the same style camouflage as the whole tank was later painted in.

Thank you for the complement and I hope I don't make to much extra work for you. smile

Anyone who hasn't looked at Rons model go do so, it is VERY impressive!

Helen

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Poniatowski, further to the subject of the track guides on the underside of the horns, I believe the that there isn't angle on the inside of the horns to retain the track.� The guide is the only thing stopping the track from sagging is the guide. I've attached photos from Philthydirtyanimal's Flickr that shows the track sagging either side of the guide.

I find photos of destroyed tanks very useful when trying to understand the construction of Tanks.

I've also attached a couple of images from an�April 1918 manual that may be of use.

ChrisG

-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Sunday 13th of December 2009 01:10:28 PM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hello Helen,

why did they bolted these three plates on the deck, where the exhaust pipes come through, I mean just 3 holes in the deck would do. Is it armour? They seem quite thick, besides the edges, how are they made? Are they in one piece, or did they double the metal? And are they tight fit to the deck all around or is there spacing?
Than the hatch: I once saw a drawing where this hatch was located more to the hull side but may be that was not accurate, I will try to find that drawing back.
Just can agree with Ron: great artwork you are doing, can't be said enough!

regards Kieffer

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Kieffer

The exhaust plates are just a flat plate bent double at the end to give them a little depth and a flange to bolt them to the top ... why they did it that way I really don't know.� confuse

The hatch is much closer to the exhaust than I expected and explains why it angles slightly to the side.

This is still one of the best images in the public domain for top detail.

Helen

Poniatowski · Major

LincolnTanker, absolutely right. They didn't need to keep the track from sagging up on the horns and it would've added to the difficulty of putting the track on the tank had they done so.

Kiefer, et al. Perhaps the thin plates on top were slightly adjustable so the exhaust pipes could be centered in their heat guards within the tank. some fudge factor is always nice in such cases. Perhaps a concern about heat and the MG ammo boxes in the racks between the exhaust stacks inside of the tank.

Helen, I agree with your assessment of the roof. The hatch angle makes sense to keep it from opening directly into the exhaust. Also, the photo shows you right and it's a detail I'missed because of those earlier (wrong) drawings of the MkI. However, I think you and I know that any flaws may be forgiven if the tank isn't readily available.

Ron

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Ron

I like your idea on the exhaust plates being used to keep the pipes central. It makes a lot of sense, as not only does it keep the exhaust pipes away from the ammo boxes, but it also keeps the heat from them being directly transferred to the roof.

As a lot of internal racks including the ammo hangs from the roof, and it acts as a storage area in its own right, the cooler it can be kept the better.

It also explains why the roof holes are larger than the exhaust pipes.

Helen

Poniatowski · Major

My thoughts too. Of course, I've been proven wrong before! LOL. Anyhoo, blanked in the old hatch with some styrene and am relocating it. So far, so good. An improvement to be sure.

Cheers!

Ron

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Helen,

thanks for the explanation! As I said before, the drawing I saw might have been not that accurate, so no distrust in your work meant at all. Here, it also looks as if the opening is rimmed, the cover being a bit higher than the deck. I had the idea that the cover lies flush with the deck, with a rim under the deck plate to prevent falling inside the hull, but that seems not to be true.

Kieffer