Landships II

Arie Dijkhuis · General

15 cm German Howitzer?

Ralph Lovett · General

This photo has come up before on this forum.� I do not remember the outcome of the previous post but I think the howitzer is a German made export model to the Ottoman Empire (15cm M1905) that can be seen at the following link:

http://www.bulgarianartillery.it/Bulgarian%20Artillery%201/Krupp%20150mm%201905_Hb_Turkey.htm

I also believe this example has simply been re-assembled up-side-down.� I could certainly be incorrect on this one but that is my guess.

R/

Ralph

CharlieC · Legend

The gun is in Jamestown, South Australia - more specifically Memorial Gardens, corner Irvine Street and Doon Terrace.

It's documented in the SA website: http://www.tributesofhonour.info/php/wm_details.php?wm_id=1634.

The text says the serial no. is #20 captured in Palestine in 1917 and allocated to 9th Light Horse in the first distribution of captured weapons in 1919. The website says it's Model 1902 Krupp gun but I think Ralph has nailed it - it's one of the export Model 1905 guns. The barrel and recoil assembly have been assembled inverted. At least the gun is under cover even if the restorers seem to have had no idea how to assemble the gun.

I searched the old forum posts for the Jamestown gun - it is mentioned in passing in a post by the late Robin Maslen - there was a CD of the restoration. I'll try to get hold of a copy.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 15th of February 2011 05:23:40 AM

MCP · Captain

If it is a Turkish howitzer captured during WW1, it cannot be a 15 cm M. 1905, since all the 18 howitzers bought in 1905 by Turkey were captured by the Bulgarian Army during the siege of Hadrianople in 1913.

Best,

Marco

-- Edited by MCP on Tuesday 15th of February 2011 09:52:31 AM

CharlieC · Legend

I read that on the Bulgarian Artillery website as well. The Jamestown gun has a serial no. of #20 - since Krupp usually numbered each order of guns from #1 this suggests that the Turkish Army may have received more than 18 guns. I guess this could be resolved by asking the Krupp archive about the numbers of guns in the 1905 order delivered.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

I've got a couple of images of the Jamestown gun from one of the restorers. The gun really seems to have the recoil/recuperator assembly mounted above the barrel unlike the sFH 02/13 howitzers.� The text with the images said there is another similar gun at the AWM also captured in Palestine from the Turks.

This gun is turning out to be a puzzle.

I'll try to get an image of the breech markings which might help with identification.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 02:57:31 PM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 02:58:21 PM

Ralph Lovett · General

Charlie

I agree, after seeing these photos. The howitzer was purpose built with the hydro-spring recoil system above the barrel.

Do you know if markings were visible on the piece?

R/

Ralph

CharlieC · Legend

Here's a hypothesis about the 15cm Krupp howitzer from the Overvalwagen forum:

"I think I now have the answer to our mystery 15cm howitzer, and it was hiding in plain sight. That list of Ottoman artillery imports did the trick, to wit: I now believe that this weapon is the below mentioned "Krupp 15cm sFH L/11" of which apparently 36 were delivered in 1913.

1913:
18 - 10,5cm L/12 Krupp Hb

*36 - 15cm L/10,5cm (sic.) Krupp sFHb (this was more likely to be designated as an "L/11" just for simplicity's sake)

Taking what the list has to say, this would mean that the Ottoman Turks at the beginning of the war had a total of 42 Krupp 15cm L/14 field howitzers (these would therefore be roughly the same weapon as the Bulgarian M-1906 and the Swedish M/06) delivered between 1905 and 1912, out of which twenty were built locally, and 36 of these previously unknown howitzers. Ralph Lovett in his article "The Development of German Heavy Artillery" says on page 5 of the article (the following took place at the end of 1910 and the beginning of 1911 and led to the eventual development of the 15cm sFH-13): "At their own expense Krupp built three new experimental howitzers. In January 1911 these were presented to the "Artillerie Prufungs Commission". THE FIRST HAD CONSTANT RECOIL, BACK POSITIONED TRUNNIONS, [AND THE] EQUILIBRATOR AND RECOIL BRAKE [WERE MOUNTED] ABOVE THE TUBE. The second had variable recoil and the third had constant recoil without an equilibrator." It would stand to reason that the Turks may have had some representatives present at these trials, and seeing the results, decided to give a commission to Krupp to build some of these howitzers for the Sultan's army. The eventual 15cm sFH-13 was a joint Krupp-Rheinmetall product as it employed the rear mounted Krupp style trunnions and the Rheinmetall BOTTOM MOUNTED VARIABLE RECOIL SYSTEM."

I think this explanation strings together data points without supplying evidence which might support the hypothesis. However the Overvalwagen forum did have an image of the 15cm gun in Turkish service.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 17th of February 2011 01:49:56 AM

CharlieC · Legend

There is a .pdf of the restoration of the Jamestown gun at www.catford.com.au/images/prod_images/CANNON.pdf.

Regards,

Charlie

Ralph Lovett · General

Charlie

I like the theory.� I have not had time to go back a research it more but I think you have a very plausible explanation.� It is also nice to see a photo of this piece in Ottoman service from the Overvalwagen Forum.�

After looking over the pdf page on the restoration of the piece it is obvious that they have done a much more extensive restoration that you would assume from the final photo.� The traversing mount was removed from the carriage and the rear carriage sheet metal removed, re-manufactured and riveted.� I know first hand this is quite a lot of work.� I am very impressed with this.So often communities will sand blast and re-paint a piece and call this restoration instead of stabilizing.This was a true restoration.It is however unclear if they removed, and restored the breech, recoil mechanism, recoil cradle and spade.Either way, far more and better than is usual.

R/

Ralph

CharlieC · Legend

The proposed source of the 15cm Krupp gun came from the Overvalwagen forum.

I think I'd add the idea that Krupp would be keen to deliver a purely Krupp design to the Turks - the sFH 13 was a mixture of Krupp and Rheinmetall designs - I'd guess Krupp would
have had to share revenue with Rheinmetall if they had sold the sFH 13.

I'm trying to get images of the breech markings of the Jamestown gun and the AWM example. I guess the gun should be run past the Krupp Archive if it can be shown it is a Krupp gun - they may have a designation for it as well as numbers produced.

It isn't clear in the .pdf on the Jamestown gun but the riveting was done by guys from the Pichi Richi Railway Society - they operate historic steam trains in the northern part of South Australia. I guess the vintage steam engine workshops are about the only people who routinely use hot riveting these days.

Many of the gun restorations in Australia are done in much the same way as the Jamestown gun. This is usually because there is a lot of rust damage to repair and the AWM has been insistent that the guns should be properly stabilised before repainting.

I'll ask whether they got into the breech and recoil assembly during the restoration.
A lot of people are very wary of the recoil assemblies for obvious reasons.

Looks like Arie has another gun to add to his list.

Regards,

Charlie

Ralph Lovett · General

Charlie

In most cases I have also had to re-produce the sheet metal and re-rivet the carriage on guns I have restored. This should be done on most guns that have been displayed outdoors in the US too.It just seldom happens. I have also disassembled the hydro-spring recoil systems because there is also generally rust in them too.I agree with you that these are dangerous and you should only do this sort of work if you either have prior experience with it or understand very well what you are doing and have a reasonable, safe plan for the work.It is important to remember that the recoil cylinder generally launches from the recoil cradle about half the length of the gun and the springs about four times the length of the gun. Equibulators, I have found can even be more dangerous than the recoil systems.

�

This web page has about the best photographs of a ground up restoration for one of my two 15cm sFH 1902s, even though this is one of the few that I did not have to extensively re-rivet:

�

http://www.lovettartillery.com/15cm_sFH_1902_%281917_Dated_How_Rest.html

�

The re-riveting is evident on some of the photos on the bottom of this page on the ground up restoration of a 10cm Kanone 1917:

�

http://www.lovettartillery.com/10cm_Kanone_1917_Restoration.html

�

R/

�

Ralph

CharlieC · Legend

I love the sound that a disproved hypothesis makes when it collapses.

Charles Catford has sent me a bunch of images of the Jamestown gun he took today.

The Jamestown gun was built in 1907. The serial no. is confirmed as #20 - suggesting a batch of guns (at least 20).

It's a really weird gun compared to the other Krupp 15cm howitzers - rack and pinion elevation gear, back positioned trunnions, no equilibrators (not that I could see), one motion breech opening, etc.

Charles sent me a copy of a letter from the AWM in 2004 - the AWM said that their German contacts said that a 15cm with recoil assembly above the barrel was not deployed by the German Army in WW1. Could this be a Turkish-only special? Krupp often made modifications to their designs including delivering a batch of 15cm howitzers to Japan with interrupted screw breeches in 1906 or so (built as the 15cm Type 38 Howitzer under licence at Osaka Arsenal).

Regards,

Charlie

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Gentlemen,

First of all, I am sorry that I have posted this picture on the forum, as it has been posted before. I must have missed that one... But as it is turning up some very interesting info, I am only half sorry... smile

�Thanks!!!!

With kind regards,

-Arie.

Ps. Charlie: It will not make it to my list. I have two lists, one of German built artillery for the German army, containing some 134 pieces, and one with captured artillery used by the Germans, containing some 70 pieces. This piece wasn't, as far as I know, used by the Germans. I am focussing on the first list, as it will last me my life time. Of the second list, I so far have only drawn the 7,62cm IG (R), as it had a�very important role in the German�army.�

CharlieC · Legend

It was only a half serious suggestion - after the 21cm Versuchsmorser at Red Cliffs....

Actually the Turkish gun may be fairly close to one of the Krupp howitzers produced for the 1911 Howitzer Evaluation Trials. I'd guess Krupp and Rheinmetall produced at least 4 guns of each type (one battery) for the evaluation trials.

I had an email from Kevin Browning - the AWM gun has serial no. #19, build date 1907. I've been promised some images of the AWM gun. These might be quite interesting because many of the AWM guns have been stored indoors since the 1920s and haven't been restored.

Regards,

Charlie

SASH155 · Major

"1913:
18 - 10,5cm L/12 Krupp Hb

*36 - 15cm L/10,5cm (sic.) Krupp sFHb (this was more likely to be designated as an "L/11" just for simplicity's sake)

Taking what the list has to say, this would mean that the Ottoman Turks at the beginning of the war had a total of 42 Krupp 15cm L/14 field howitzers (these would therefore be roughly the same weapon as the Bulgarian M-1906 and the Swedish M/06) delivered between 1905 and 1912, out of which twenty were built locally, and 36 of these previously unknown howitzers. Ralph Lovett in his article "The Development of German Heavy Artillery" says on page 5 of the article (the following took place at the end of 1910 and the beginning of 1911 and led to the eventual development of the 15cm sFH-13): "At their own expense Krupp built three new experimental howitzers. In January 1911 these were presented to the "Artillerie Prufungs Commission". THE FIRST HAD CONSTANT RECOIL, BACK POSITIONED TRUNNIONS, [AND THE] EQUILIBRATOR AND RECOIL BRAKE [WERE MOUNTED] ABOVE THE TUBE. The second had variable recoil and the third had constant recoil without an equilibrator." It would stand to reason that the Turks may have had some representatives present at these trials, and seeing the results, decided to give a commission to Krupp to build some of these howitzers for the Sultan's army. The eventual 15cm sFH-13 was a joint Krupp-Rheinmetall product as it employed the rear mounted Krupp style trunnions and the Rheinmetall BOTTOM MOUNTED VARIABLE RECOIL SYSTEM."

This was my theory, based on the sources I had, including Ralph's writings on the subject. If the breech rings on these howitzers are marked 1907, then I am off by at least four or five years, and the weapon was an earlier design than I suspected. Sometimes this stuff is really a detective operation.
�Edited by SASH155 on Saturday 19th of February 2011 04:12:19 PM

-- Edited by SASH155 on Saturday 19th of February 2011 04:14:48 PM

CharlieC · Legend

I've sent off a query to the Krupp archive about this howitzer - hopefully they can identify it. I'll report back if they get back to me. This might take a while.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

If someone on the forum has a copy of Schirmer's book "das Gerat der Artillerie vor, in und nach dem Weltkrieg" would you mind checking if this strange Krupp gun is documented.
There are, as far as I can find, no copies of this book in Australia.

So far no one has come up with an identification although Franz Kozar wrote to a contact in Australia in the late 90s that the AWM gun looked very similar to one of the Krupp prototypes in the 1911 15cm Howitzer Evaluation Trials.

Regards,

Charlie

ALVF · Major

Hello,

I have the Schirmer's Book but there is no mention of this strange Krupp gun!
I read on french books writed by french officers send in the Balkans during the 1912-1913 Wars that 18 modern 15-cm Krupp Howitzers of turkish Army were captured during the Siege of Andrinople.I search for more information.
Yours sincerely,
Guy Fran�ois.

CharlieC · Legend

Thanks for looking.

I can help with the Bulgarian captured guns - www.bulgarianartillery.it/Bulgarian Artillery 1/Krupp 150mm 1905_Hb_Turkey.htm. The Bulgarians claimed they captured 18 15cm howitzers but either the Turks received more than the documented 18 guns from Krupp or the capture claim is suspect. There were other 15cm Model 1905 howitzers captured in Palestine in 1918, some were from the 20 manufactured under licence in Turkey others were from Krupp (there a few of these in Australia).

The Model 1905 howitzer was only an export gun - they were sold to Turkey, Sweden, Holland and a couple of other countries.

Regards,

Charlie

ALVF · Major

Hello,

The bulgarian claim for the capture of 18 modern 15-cm Krupp Howitzer is not suspect.
Many french officers in the Balkans have seen these howitzers:
-Colonel (later General during World War One) Piarron de Mondesir (engineers), captain Bellanger (artillery) and captain Ripert d'Alauzier (infantry) have seen these howitzers and writed one book and papers (in french Artillery Review and Engineers Review, "Revue d'artillerie" and "Revue du G�nie" ) these writings depict with great details the turkish batteries and guns in Andrinople's Siege and all the guns captured after the Siege.They write and describe the organisation of the 18 15-cm Krupp Howitzers, all captured by bulgarian Army.
-General Herr was also in the Balkans during the wars and writed papers and one book on the artillery tactics and materials in Serbian, Greek, Bulgarian and Turkish Armies with the mention of the 18 15-cm Krupp Howitzers of the turkish Army captured in Andrinople.
Yours sincerely,
Guy Fran�ois.

CharlieC · Legend

Jumping back to Ralph's question about the restoration. Quoting from an email I received from Charles Catford, leader of the restoration team:

"The only unrestored part of the cannon is the recoil mechanism as we were uncertain of the danger of restoring this part and so erred on the cautious side and decided not to do it.

The winding mechanisms are all able to be operated. The cog systems were reconditioned; some of the cogs had to be cut out quite crudely but all were restored after removal from the cannon body. Some of the riveting, especially the tin work around the axle, required domes to be machined on bolts and nuts to make them look like rivets. We did the bolts and nuts up as tight as possible, welded the nuts to the bolts, used a die grinder on them and made them look like rivets where it was not possible to access with the rivet gun and dolly. We also had to make up special tooling to rivet 95% of the tin work.

The recoil cradle and spade were completely restored with the cradle having to be cut in two to remove it; it was then restored, sand blasted and replaced."

The gun does have an equilibrator somewhat similar to the FK 16 - the cylinder hanging below the barrel in the attached image is the housing for the equilibrator springs..

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 1st of March 2011 12:59:39 PM

ALVF · Major

Hello,

In a paper "Le Si�ge d'Andrinople" published in french "Revue du G�nie" dated juni 1914, there is a photograph of one of the 18 modern howitzers Krupp captured during the siege of Andrinople.It is the "normal" 15-cm L/14 Haubitze and not the "strange" howitzer.
I think that the strange howitzer is one of the 36 Howitzers sold in 1913 after the Andrinople's desaster to the turkish Army.
Yours sincerely,
Guy Fran�ois.

CharlieC · Legend

I think you are probably correct but there's no solid evidence, so far.

The Turkish army also received 20 or so 15cm howitzers built by the Turkish Arsenal before WW1. These seem to have been licence built based on the Model 1905 Krupp design.
There is at least one survivor from these guns in Australia at Goulburn, NSW. I haven't got
an image of the markings but I've been told they are all in Turkish script. The damage to the barrel is thought to have been an attempt by the Turks to disable the gun before capture.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 4th of March 2011 11:32:20 PM

MCP · Captain

ALVF wrote:

I think that the strange howitzer is one of the 36 Howitzers sold in 1913 after the Andrinople's desaster to the turkish Army.

It is not possible, since the howitzers purchased in 1905 were designed by the Turkish army as Sahra ob�s� 15/14, (field howitzer) while the howitzers purchased in 1912 were designed Seri sahra ob�s� 15/10.5 (QF field howitzers). But in 1912 another 4 Sahra ob�s� 15/14 were purchased. The latter has the same range and weight of the shell than the howitzers purchased in 1905.
Th source is GENELKURMAY HARP TARH BAKANLII : T�rk Silahli Kuvvetleri Tarihi III Cilt, 6 Kisim (1908-1920) Ankara : Basimevi 1971, pp. 439-441.

Best,

Marco

�

CharlieC · Legend

The German designation of the 18 x 15cm howitzers ordered in 1905 was schwere Positionhaubitze L/14 mit Rohrrucklauf (source - Krupp archive)

I'm tending to the view that the 1913 order of 36 howitzers weren't these guns. I have to do some more work but I think there are a couple of these in Australia - they are indistinguishable from the standard German schwere Feldhaubitze 13 (kurz) except the gun numbers are low (<36) in line with Krupp practice. I don't think Krupp made a 15cm gun with a barrel as short as L/10.5 the range would be very short.

I'm interested in the 4 guns delivered in 1912 - these are L/14 and noted as H - guess it as Haubitze. It would be astounding if 2 out of 4 guns was captured and survive in Australia.

Regards,

Charlie

MCP · Captain

As for the 36 field howitzers 15cm L/10.5, I think they were old not QF schwere Feldhaubitze (M. 1893) 15 cm L/10.8 coming directly from the stocks of the German Army.
Pro : 1) in mid-March 1913 the 2nd Assistant chief of Turkish General Staff, col. Pertev bey, left Turkey and went to Germany in order to secure additional heavy guns. But, in spite of the efforts of the Field Marshal Colmar von der Goltz, he could not obtain anything during the war. Maybe he could obtain them after the war, directly from the German army or from Krupp.
2) the range of the 15 cm L/10.5 howitzers according with the Turkish source was 6050 m, the same of the schwere Feldhaubitze.
3) in 1915 during the Gallipoli campaign the Turkish Army employed some of these howitzers with 8th art. regiment (I'm not an expert of the Gallipoli campaign, but I'm quite sure that Turkish 8th art. regt. was armed with these howitzers, can anybody confirm this info?)
Contra : the 15 cm L/10.5 howitzers were designed as seri sahra ob�s�, and seri means "quick". But I'm not sure that this term was used to designate "quick firing" guns.
I hope this may help.

Marco

Ralph Lovett · General

Marco

�

It is interesting to me that the 15cm s.F.H. 1893 may have been in Ottoman service. �I am especially fond of this old pattern howitzer because it was the first artillery piece I ever bought. I also like it because without the hydo-spring recoil mechanism it is very easy to maintain.� I have read that the older men of the German Lanwehr also liked this aspect of the piece. ��I have seen photos and list indicating the 15cm sFH 1913 was also in Ottoman service.�

Do you know if the 15cm s.F.H. 1902, 15cm lg.s.F.H. 1913 and 15cm lg.s.F.H. 1913/02 also saw Ottoman service?

R/
Ralph

MCP · Captain

The same Turkish source has also a list (incompleted) of guns delivered by Germany during WW1.
There are (in blue my speculation):

field howitzers Krupp 15cm sFHb. 13	12	15/14	1917
field howitzers Krupp 15cm sFHb. 13 (lang)	32	15/17	1917
long guns Krupp� 10cm K14	8	105/35	1917
long guns Krupp 10cm K17	4	105/45	1917
long guns Krupp 15cm K16 Krupp	2	15/43	1917

Marco

CharlieC · Legend

The Turkish Army received both the 15cm sFH 13 and 15cm lg.sFH 13 howitzers - the second image is of a gun captured at Amman (Oct 1918) - not sure but it might be an lg. sFH13/02. There are at least 4 15cm sFH 13 survivors in Australia captured in Palestine. The build dates on 2 of these is 1915.

The attached images are from the AWM collection. The survivor is at Norwood in South Australia (serial #460 build 1915).

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 15th of March 2011 11:40:08 PM

Ralph Lovett · General

Charlie
The 15cm lg. s.F.H. 1913/02 is the same as the long barreled 15cm lg. s.F.H. 1913 except that it has no hinge for folding its upper shield forward and the spade is much larger and made in one piece. There is also no layer seat. The 13/02 was really just a very late war variant with the nice to have parts abbreviated out to speed production.
R/
Ralph

CharlieC · Legend

I can't see how an L/10.5 15cm howitzer can have the same range as a howitzer with an L/14 barrel using the same projectiles.

There doesn't seem to be any record of the 15cm M1893 howitzer being exported to Turkey. The Turkish Army used a lot of 12cm M1895? guns - both imported and locally produced. Certainly there aren't any M1893s among the captured guns in Australia (and we have examples of just about everything the Turks used).

Regards,

Charlie

MCP · Captain

CharlieC wrote:

I can't see how an L/10.5 15cm howitzer can have the same range as a howitzer with an L/14 barrel using the same projectiles.

There doesn't seem to be any record of the 15cm M1893 howitzer being exported to Turkey. The Turkish Army used a lot of 12cm M1895? guns - both imported and locally produced. Certainly there aren't any M1893s among the captured guns in Australia (and we have examples of just about everything the Turks used).

Regards,

Charlie

Maybe I was not clear: according with T�rk Silahli Kuvvetleri Tarihi III Cilt, the 15cm L/10.5 howitzer had the same max. range (6050 m) as the 15 cm M. 1893 German howitzer.
I don't know if Turkey obtained some 15 cm M. 1893. I think I read somewhere that 8th art. regt. at Gallipoli was armed with these howitzers, but I'm not sure.

Best,

Marco

Rectalgia · Legend

Interesting. By the way, when the Turkish VIII Army Corps attacked along the Suez Canal on 3 Feb 1915 their order of battle included elements of their 25th and 27th Artillery Regiments with "5.9-inch" guns. They dragged those things all the way across the Sinai Desert, which wouldn't have been much fun. I don't have further detail about those guns at this time.

CharlieC · Legend

There is an image of a gun similar to the Jamestown gun in F.Kosar's "Artillerie im 20. Jahrhundert". If anyone has a copy of this book would you mind looking it up - there might be some data on the gun as well.

The description of the Krupp entries in the 1911 Howitzer evaluation is in Schirmer's book
"das Gerat der Artillerie vor, in und nach dem Weltkrieg" p.61

Regards,

Charlie

Ralph Lovett · General

RE: 15 cm German Howitzer? (15cm sFH 1893 in Ottoman Service)

CharlieC · Legend

15 cm German Howitzer?

Ralph Lovett · General

Charlie

Interesting information on the Ottoman piece.� This is a link for my page on the panoramic scope for the 15cm s.F.H. 1913 in Ottoman service.� There is a table attached that compairs the Arabic-Indic (Used now in the Middle East and former Ottoman Empire) and Arabic (what we use in the West) numbering systems:

http://www.lovettartillery.com/Ottoman_Foot_Artillery_Panoramic_Sight.htm

I hope this is of interest

R/

Ralph

�

CharlieC · Legend

�

A while ago I wrote a short article on reading the build dates and serial numbers on Turkish guns - www.ammsbrisbane.com/articles.htm (article - "Turkish Gun Markings")

- there is an issue about dates in Ottoman inscriptions.

I should write up later work on recognising the inscriptions on Turkish guns.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

�

I think there's a reasonable case that the Jamestown 15cm howitzer and the similar howitzer at the AWM were originally Krupp development prototypes either built in anticipation of the APK specification for the sFH02 replacement or as part of the development of the 21cm M1910 Morser.

One of the prototypes was selected for participation in the 1911 15cm howitzer evaluation trials. The original Krupp prototype 15cm built to meet the 1908 specification proved to be overweight and was withdrawn from the trials. The trials resulted in neither the Krupp or Rheinmetall howitzers being selected for production.

The four prototypes were sold to the Ottoman Army in 1912 and 3 of them were captured in Palestine in 1918.

I guess we should refer to the Jamestown and AWM howitzers as 15cm schwere Versuchshaubitze or 15cm Seri Obus (Quick action howitzers).

I've written this up as a report (7 MB pdf) - anyone wants a copy PM me with email address.

Regards,

Charlie

�